Thermocouple Type-K: 3 Wires & Ceramic Shield?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the characteristics and functionality of a type-K thermocouple that features an additional wire connected to its joint and twisted around a ceramic shield. Participants explore the purpose of this third wire, particularly in relation to grounding and thermowell applications, while also discussing various types of thermocouples and their uses in different contexts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes the presence of a third wire in their type-K thermocouple and seeks clarification on its purpose.
  • Several participants request additional information, such as pictures and model numbers, to better understand the specific thermocouple in question.
  • Some participants suggest that the extra wire may be intended for grounding through a thermowell, which could connect to grounded equipment.
  • Another participant mentions that thermocouples can be either grounded or ungrounded, and discusses the implications of these configurations on measurement accuracy and response time.
  • There is a discussion about the differences between grounded and ungrounded thermocouples, including their construction and intended applications.
  • Participants share insights about thermocouples' roles in various devices, including gas valves and safety circuits, but express uncertainty about the specific application of the type-K thermocouple in question.
  • Some participants discuss the power generation capabilities of thermocouples, noting that they can provide sufficient voltage for certain applications, but debate the nuances of how they operate in different contexts.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the purpose of the third wire and the specific type of thermocouple being discussed. The discussion remains unresolved, with no consensus on the exact function of the additional wire or its implications for the thermocouple's use.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention various configurations of thermocouples, including grounded versus ungrounded types, and the potential for grounding issues. There are references to specific applications and designs, but the discussion does not resolve the assumptions or conditions surrounding these configurations.

  • #31
Averagesupernova said:
My guess the third wire is to help with noise imunity while preventing the whole thermocouple from floating. I would think there would be better noise immunity when this third wire is grounded back at the amplifier/transmitter than just grounding it at the weld. I would think of it as a shielded twisted pair microphone cable.

A propensity for noise issues depends on controller instrumentation amp design as well as TC construction and wiring. I ran into this when replacing an ancient Barber-Coleman MACO V control system with a (then, only recently introduced) Allen-Bradley SLC500 PLC equipped with a half dozen 1747-NT4, 4 channel thermocouple input modules. Temperature measurements drifted by a degree or so, some more than others, and apparently at random, but closer investigation revealed it depended on how many zones were simultaneously calling for heat. Turned out the -NT4 module was more sensitive to common mode noise than the MACO V (several years later A-B introduced an -INT4 module with better isolation), and a quick fix was to swap out the original grounded thermocouple probes for ungrounded ones. Another option was to replace all the TC extension wire runs with shielded TC extension cable, ground the shield at the TC plug negative connection (in the process introducing an ongoing maintenance issue), and bond the negative TC extension wire at the module's analog common.

1747-NT4_Input.jpg
TC input wiring

It was a long walk to get here, but most other manufacturers also recommend bonding a grounded thermocouple's cable shield to the source (TC) rather than at the instrument side. The cable shield for an ungrounded TC is grounded at the input module.

Ungrounded thermocouples aren't a panacea, and don't necessarily help with noise. Many TC instrumentation amps connect the inverting input to ground through a high resistance. It they don't, any charge that builds up on the wires through op amp reverse bias leakage, static, etc. has nowhere to go, and affects measurements.

AD_TC_Figure 6_Circuit.jpg


Figure 6 was borrowed from an excellent Analog Devices technical article, "Two Ways to Measure Temperature Using Thermocouples Feature Simplicity, Accuracy, and Flexibility" regarding their TC amplifiers.

In the OP's situation I'd bet there is a screw within reach of the TC ground wire with witness marks indicating prior connection.
 
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