Thermodynamics, Callen's problem, it doesn't make sense to me

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around a thermodynamics problem involving the internal energy U of a single-component system, expressed as U=APV^2 for two moles. Participants are tasked with determining the dependence of U on pressure, volume, and mole number, while addressing apparent contradictions in the problem statement regarding how changes in volume and mole number affect U.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants explore the implications of the given expression for U and question the consistency of units. Some attempt to derive relationships between U, V, and n, while others express confusion over the stated relationships in the problem.

Discussion Status

There is ongoing exploration of the relationships between variables, with some participants providing insights and alternative approaches. While some clarity has emerged regarding the equivalence of different expressions for U, there remains a lack of consensus on the interpretation of the problem's conditions.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the importance of understanding the implications of doubling the system and how it affects U, n, and V, as well as the need to reconcile different expressions for U provided in the problem and the textbook.

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Homework Statement


Two moles of a particular single-component system are found to have a dependence of internal energy U on pressure and volume given by U=APV^2 (for N=2) where A=10cm ^{-3}. Note that doubling the system doubles the volume, energy, and the mole number but leaves the pressure unaltered, and write the complete dependence of U on P, V and N for arbitrary mole number. Answer: U=BPV^2/N where B=20 cm ^3.


Homework Equations


Not sure there are any. To be found.


The Attempt at a Solution


First I tried to understand the problem and makes sense of the given expression U=APV^2. I checked out the units in SI units and instead of joule I reach Jm^2. So that this expression doesn't make sense to me, I cannot even proceed further.
The book is considered of one of the most cited apparently for thermodynamics so I'm sure the book is right and I'm missing something. I just don't know what I'm missing, any help is appreciated.
 
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fluidistic said:
First I tried to understand the problem and makes sense of the given expression U=APV^2. I checked out the units in SI units and instead of joule I reach Jm^2.
How'd you get that?
 
vela said:
How'd you get that?
By forgetting to divide the force by the area in the pressure expression. :smile:
 
I don't know how to reach the answer. Attempt:
Let V_0 be the volume when n=2. So that V(n)=\frac{V_0 n}{2} (linear relation). P is constant. I do the same relation for U(n): U(n)=\frac{U_0 n}{2}.
The relation they provide becomes U_0=APV_0^2. Written with my terms I get U(n)=\frac{2APV^2(n)}{n}=\frac{APnV_0 ^2}{2}.
Something is definitely wrong, I shouldn't be able to get a dependence of U only in terms of n.
I've tried other things but reached nothing like the result.
 
fluidistic said:

Homework Statement


Two moles of a particular single-component system are found to have a dependence of internal energy U on pressure and volume given by U=APV^2 (for N=2) where A=10cm ^{-3}. Note that doubling the system doubles the volume, energy, and the mole number but leaves the pressure unaltered, and write the complete dependence of U on P, V and N for arbitrary mole number. Answer: U=BPV^2/N where B=20 cm ^3.


What's confusing is the statement that doubling the system doubles U, n and V, yet the formula seems to suggest that doubling the system quadruples U, since it seems that if V' = 2V, so U' = 10p(2V)^2 = 40pV2 = 4U. But this is not what the problem states: it states that U just doubles & we have to accommodate that fact:

Oops! I nearly did it again, giving the complete solution.
 
Last edited:
Thank you for your help. But I think that's what I've done in my last post. I don't see anything wrong with my answer.
When n=2 I get the given relation. When I duplicate n, I get twice the same energy and the volume duplicates too; the pressure remaining the same just as it should. Yet my answer differs from the one given (worth apparently \frac{200PV^2}{An} if I write it in terms of A rather than B.)
 
fluidistic said:
I don't know how to reach the answer. Attempt:
Let V_0 be the volume when n=2. So that V(n)=\frac{V_0 n}{2} (linear relation). P is constant. I do the same relation for U(n): U(n)=\frac{U_0 n}{2}.
The relation they provide becomes U_0=APV_0^2. Written with my terms I get U(n)=\frac{2APV^2(n)}{n}=\frac{APnV_0 ^2}{2}.
Something is definitely wrong, I shouldn't be able to get a dependence of U only in terms of n.
I've tried other things but reached nothing like the result.[/QUOTE

EDIT! EDIT! EDIT!

fluidistic - I don't know how to tell you this, but your answer was always correct:
U(n) = {2ApV2(n)}/n is correct and agrees with the answer the OP gave us!

*****************************************************************

I'll give OP a lead: U(n) = (10pn/2)V2(2)
but V(2) = 2V(n)/n so
U(n) = (10pn/2){2V(n)/n}2

You wind up with the given answer.

While I'm at it:it makes sense, does it not, that doubling the volume does not change the internal energy? For example, in a free expansion where no work is done and no heat is added or subtracted.
 
Last edited:
Ok rude man, thanks for helping me. I am the OP in case you didn't notice :smile:
If my answer U(n)=\frac{2APV^2(n)}{n} is right and the answer provided by the textbook is (written in terms of A instead of B) \frac{200PV^2}{An} which is right by definition, how would one shows they are equivalent?
To me, this would mean that 2A=200/A. Wait, that means A=10 (I didn't check out the units though) which is... RIGHT!
Wow.
Problem solved!
 
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fluidistic said:
Ok rude man, thanks for helping me. I am the OP in case you didn't notice :smile:
If my answer U(n)=\frac{2APV^2(n)}{n} is right and the answer provided by the textbook is (written in terms of A instead of B) \frac{200PV^2}{An} which is right by definition, how would one shows they are equivalent?
To me, this would mean that 2A=200/A. Wait, that means A=10 (I didn't check out the units though) which is... RIGHT!
Wow.
Problem solved!

Yep, and my apologies for thinking you were not the OP! :blushing:
 

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