Time constant of a transfer function

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of time constants in transfer functions, particularly focusing on a third-order transfer function. Participants explore how to express time constants, the implications of adding poles, and the definitions of time constants in various contexts, including integrators and low-pass filters.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express uncertainty about how to determine the final time constant for a third-order system, questioning whether to multiply individual time constants derived from the denominator.
  • Others argue that the response to a step input increases indefinitely, suggesting that the question may be poorly framed or meaningless.
  • A participant mentions that adding a pole at the origin does not affect the time constant and suggests using a second-order formula, while another challenges this by stating that the time response to a unit step input does not yield a single time constant.
  • Some participants propose that the time constant of an integrator is the time needed for the output to reach the step input value, while others dispute this definition, stating that it depends on the gain of the integrator.
  • There is a discussion about the lack of a consistent definition of "time constant" across different systems, with some noting that definitions vary for integrators, low-pass filters, and second-order systems.
  • One participant emphasizes that the term "time constant" should have units of seconds, while another counters that it is not restricted to asymptotic responses.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the definition of time constants or how to apply them in the context of the given transfer function. Multiple competing views remain, particularly regarding the implications of adding poles and the interpretation of time constants in different systems.

Contextual Notes

Participants express various assumptions about the nature of the transfer function and the behavior of the system, indicating that the definitions and applications of time constants may depend on specific system characteristics and configurations.

  • #31
FactChecker said:
In situations where the system can become unstable, maintaining large enough phase and gain margins is one of the top level requirements. The margins allow for some uncertainty in the modeling and the equipment condition (age, damage, dirt, etc.). In those cases, getting fast response often makes the designs come close to the margin limits. So they become important.

Yes - full agreement.
The classical procedure for designing/tuning a control system is to find a controller that satisfies the requirements in the time domain (response time, overshoot, etc) and - at the same time - in the frequency domain (stability properties, safety margins)
 
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  • #32
I didn't understand. Can you please confirm this:
given transfer function.
Find output for step response using laplace, multiply, then inverse laplace.
Differentiate y(t) to find slope. This gives y'(t)
Then what?
How to find time constant from here?
 
  • #33
Calculating the time constant is possible, but it is rather involved.:

* Find the step response, which should be named g(t)
* Calculate the first derivative g´(t)
* Find the value for g´(t) for very large times (you need the asymptotic line)
* Now you have a slope of a straight line. For finding the equation of this line you need one point on the line.
* Select one point on the g(t) curve for very large times.
* Applying math basics for calculating the equation for the wanted asymptotic line. .
* Find the time t=T where this line crosses the horizontal time axis.
_________________
This is exactly what you can do (much quicker) graphically (crossing of the asymptotic line).
 
Last edited:
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  • #34
I have corrected an error in my above answer; I have forgotten the step for calculating the first derivative g´(t).
 
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