Time dilation vs the Equivalence principle

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the relationship between time dilation and the equivalence principle, particularly in the context of two laboratories: one on the surface of the Earth and another in a spaceship accelerating in deep space. Participants explore how time dilation affects the decay of muons in these different environments and whether measurable differences exist between the effects of gravity and acceleration.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that time dilation on Earth, due to gravitational potential, results in muons decaying more slowly compared to those in an accelerating spaceship, where they argue no time dilation occurs.
  • Others argue that time dilation is a coordinate-dependent statement and can be operationalized through experiments involving synchronized clocks, suggesting that both scenarios exhibit time dilation effects that would influence muon decay similarly.
  • A participant questions the fundamental difference between gravity and acceleration, suggesting that gravity is merely an acceleration caused by spacetime curvature.
  • Another participant clarifies that freefall in a gravitational field is equivalent to floating in space, while remaining stationary in a gravitational field is equivalent to accelerating upward, emphasizing the relative nature of these experiences.
  • Concerns are raised about the potential for side discussions to detract from the original question regarding muon decay times, with a request for a direct answer to whether the decay times would differ.
  • Some participants note that while gravity varies with distance, the acceleration experienced in a spaceship can be constant, leading to distinctions in how these forces are perceived.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether the decay times of muons would differ between the two laboratories. There are competing views on the nature of time dilation in gravitational and accelerating frames, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty regarding the operationalization of time dilation and the implications of the equivalence principle, highlighting the complexity of distinguishing between gravitational effects and those due to acceleration.

  • #31
Prometeus said:
Good point. Experiments with muons showed only velocity dependent time dilation and absence of time dilation in acceleration. Time dilation effect in gravity of the Earth would be negligible and it was only my conjecture that there should be also time dilation effect.
Nevertheless, we can analyze what SR/GR would predict. It predicts that they would be equal.

Prometeus said:
Yes, I am writing specifically about zero height difference and pure acceleration effect and everybody seems like repeating the only mantra they know - the difference in height in the rocket. Seems like common obsession of all who had studied physics. It surely has some hidden Freudian meaning :)
It means that experts naturally assume that if you are asking about gravitational time dilation then you would want to discuss a scenario where there would be measurable gravitational time dilation. Your proposed experiment is not sensitive to the acceleration/gravity.
 
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  • #32
Prometeus said:
Yes, I am writing specifically about zero height difference and pure acceleration effect and everybody seems like repeating the only mantra they know - the difference in height in the rocket. Seems like common obsession of all who had studied physics. It surely has some hidden Freudian meaning :)
Zero height difference in the rocket is the equivalent of zero height distance on the Earth. Zero height difference in a gravitational field produces zero time dilation. Neither gravity or acceleration produce time dilation in of themselves. Time dilation in both cases is only caused by a difference in potential. Either different altitudes in the Earth's gravity or different positions in the accelerating frame of the rocket.
When someone says that the time dilation at the Earth's surface has some value, they mean they mean compared to a point that is at a maximum gravitational potential relative to the Earth. (By convention we set this maximum as being zero, with all potentials closer to the Earth having negative values. Thus the specific gravitational potential at the Earth surface is ~ -62511759 j/kg
 
  • #33
Prometeus said:
Im writing specifically about zero height difference and pure acceleration effect

And we're telling you, repeatedly, that there is no such thing. So your question is answered. And there is no point in continuing to go around in circles about it.

Thread closed.
 

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