Trouble understanding the influence of a real spring in a system

Click For Summary
The discussion focuses on understanding the forces acting on a mass-spring system, particularly the influence of a real spring's force described by the equation F = -kx + αx². The user is trying to derive a function y = y(m) that relates the height of a block suspended by the spring to its mass, using equilibrium conditions. Confusion arises regarding the correct application of the force equation and the interpretation of the variables involved. Clarifications suggest that the user should solve the quadratic equation derived from the force balance to find y(m), emphasizing the importance of choosing a physically meaningful solution. The conversation highlights the challenges of translating theoretical equations into practical scenarios.
hcpyz
Messages
2
Reaction score
2
The hypothesis is that the force of a real spring can be described as $$F = -kx + \alpha x^2$$ with x being the spring deformation and k its constant. The \alpha x^2 would be the force lost by the spring as x becomes too big. To test that, a system was build with block of mass m suspended by a vertical spring. Different blocks with different masses were used and, in the equilibrium state, the value y of its height in relation to the ground was registered. Worth mentioning that for the problem $$x = y_0 - y$$ with y_0 being the height of the lower end of the spring in relation to the ground when there is no block.

**The problem is**: Find a function y = y(m) in terms of k, alpha and y_0 .

**What I've done so far**

I thought that since we are dealing with a mass spring system we would find an equation for the system without any mass being weighted. So:
$$
-k(y_0) + \alpha(y_0)^2 = 0
$$
I don't feel very confident with that statement but moving on...
The I found an equation for the system when there's a mass being weighted, which would be found by doing the force diagram. This is being really confusing to me, so...

$$
P = mg = -kx + \alpha x^2
$$
Here I'm really confused with the minus sing. But well, moving on again...
$$
mg = -k(y_0 - y) + \alpha (y_0 - y)^2
$$
And then I thought that it would be a good idea to solve this system.

$$
\begin{cases}
-k(y_0) + \alpha(y_0)^2 = 0 \\
mg = -k(y_0 - y) + \alpha (y_0 - y)^2
\end{cases}
$$

I've tried doing it by hand and also with wolfram mathematica but it seems unsolvable thus I think I'm missing the conceptual part of it in the force diagram I built with the equation, am I getting the minus sing wrong?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
If ##~mg = -k(y_0 - y) + \alpha (y_0 - y)^2~,## what prevents you from solving the quadratic for ##(y_0-y)## and then moving ##y_0## to the other side of the equation? Wouldn't that give you ##y(m)##? Be sure to choose the solution that is physically meaningful.

Addendum on edit:
The "no mass" equation you have is incorrect. The variable ##y## is the height of the mass above ground. We are also given that the height above ground when no mass is hanging is ##y_0##. So if you substitute ##m=0## and ##y=y_0## in the force equation, you get $$0*g=-k(y_0-y_0)+\alpha(y_0-y_0)^2\implies0=0.$$Nothing usable here.
 
Last edited:
kuruman said:
If ##~mg = -k(y_0 - y) + \alpha (y_0 - y)^2~,## what prevents you from solving the quadratic for ##(y_0-y)## and then moving ##y_0## to the other side of the equation? Wouldn't that give you ##y(m)##? Be sure to choose the solution that is physically meaningful.

Addendum on edit:
The "no mass" equation you have is incorrect. The variable ##y## is the height of the mass above ground. We are also given that the height above ground when no mass is hanging is ##y_0##. So if you substitute ##m=0## and ##y=y_0## in the force equation, you get $$0*g=-k(y_0-y_0)+\alpha(y_0-y_0)^2\implies0=0.$$Nothing usable here.
oh wow, that was way simpler than I was thinking. Thank you!
 
If have close pipe system with water inside pressurized at P1= 200 000Pa absolute, density 1000kg/m3, wider pipe diameter=2cm, contraction pipe diameter=1.49cm, that is contraction area ratio A1/A2=1.8 a) If water is stationary(pump OFF) and if I drill a hole anywhere at pipe, water will leak out, because pressure(200kPa) inside is higher than atmospheric pressure (101 325Pa). b)If I turn on pump and water start flowing with with v1=10m/s in A1 wider section, from Bernoulli equation I...

Similar threads

Replies
11
Views
1K
Replies
6
Views
1K
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K
Replies
4
Views
692
Replies
24
Views
3K
Replies
17
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
1K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
1K
Replies
7
Views
1K