Trouble understanding the influence of a real spring in a system

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SUMMARY

The discussion focuses on the mathematical modeling of a real spring's behavior using the equation $$F = -kx + \alpha x^2$$, where $$x$$ represents spring deformation, $$k$$ is the spring constant, and $$\alpha$$ accounts for the force lost at large deformations. Participants analyze a mass-spring system to derive a function $$y = y(m)$$ in terms of $$k$$, $$\alpha$$, and $$y_0$$, the height of the spring without a mass. Key insights reveal confusion around the force diagram and the significance of the negative sign in the equations, leading to a deeper understanding of the system dynamics.

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  • Basic knowledge of force diagrams and equilibrium conditions
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hcpyz
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The hypothesis is that the force of a real spring can be described as $$F = -kx + \alpha x^2$$ with x being the spring deformation and k its constant. The \alpha x^2 would be the force lost by the spring as x becomes too big. To test that, a system was build with block of mass m suspended by a vertical spring. Different blocks with different masses were used and, in the equilibrium state, the value y of its height in relation to the ground was registered. Worth mentioning that for the problem $$x = y_0 - y$$ with y_0 being the height of the lower end of the spring in relation to the ground when there is no block.

**The problem is**: Find a function y = y(m) in terms of k, alpha and y_0 .

**What I've done so far**

I thought that since we are dealing with a mass spring system we would find an equation for the system without any mass being weighted. So:
$$
-k(y_0) + \alpha(y_0)^2 = 0
$$
I don't feel very confident with that statement but moving on...
The I found an equation for the system when there's a mass being weighted, which would be found by doing the force diagram. This is being really confusing to me, so...

$$
P = mg = -kx + \alpha x^2
$$
Here I'm really confused with the minus sing. But well, moving on again...
$$
mg = -k(y_0 - y) + \alpha (y_0 - y)^2
$$
And then I thought that it would be a good idea to solve this system.

$$
\begin{cases}
-k(y_0) + \alpha(y_0)^2 = 0 \\
mg = -k(y_0 - y) + \alpha (y_0 - y)^2
\end{cases}
$$

I've tried doing it by hand and also with wolfram mathematica but it seems unsolvable thus I think I'm missing the conceptual part of it in the force diagram I built with the equation, am I getting the minus sing wrong?
 
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If ##~mg = -k(y_0 - y) + \alpha (y_0 - y)^2~,## what prevents you from solving the quadratic for ##(y_0-y)## and then moving ##y_0## to the other side of the equation? Wouldn't that give you ##y(m)##? Be sure to choose the solution that is physically meaningful.

Addendum on edit:
The "no mass" equation you have is incorrect. The variable ##y## is the height of the mass above ground. We are also given that the height above ground when no mass is hanging is ##y_0##. So if you substitute ##m=0## and ##y=y_0## in the force equation, you get $$0*g=-k(y_0-y_0)+\alpha(y_0-y_0)^2\implies0=0.$$Nothing usable here.
 
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kuruman said:
If ##~mg = -k(y_0 - y) + \alpha (y_0 - y)^2~,## what prevents you from solving the quadratic for ##(y_0-y)## and then moving ##y_0## to the other side of the equation? Wouldn't that give you ##y(m)##? Be sure to choose the solution that is physically meaningful.

Addendum on edit:
The "no mass" equation you have is incorrect. The variable ##y## is the height of the mass above ground. We are also given that the height above ground when no mass is hanging is ##y_0##. So if you substitute ##m=0## and ##y=y_0## in the force equation, you get $$0*g=-k(y_0-y_0)+\alpha(y_0-y_0)^2\implies0=0.$$Nothing usable here.
oh wow, that was way simpler than I was thinking. Thank you!
 
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