Trouble understanding the influence of a real spring in a system

Click For Summary

Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around understanding the behavior of a real spring in a mass-spring system, specifically focusing on the force equation that incorporates both linear and quadratic terms. The original poster attempts to derive a function relating the height of a mass suspended by a spring to its mass, spring constant, and a parameter representing the spring's non-ideal behavior.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants explore the implications of the force equation involving both linear and quadratic terms. Questions arise regarding the interpretation of the spring's deformation and the correct application of the equations. Some participants suggest solving for the height in terms of mass, while others question the validity of the initial conditions and the setup of the equations.

Discussion Status

The discussion is ongoing, with participants providing insights and questioning the original poster's assumptions. Some guidance has been offered regarding the approach to solving the equations, but there is no explicit consensus on the correct interpretation or solution path yet.

Contextual Notes

There is mention of confusion regarding the signs in the equations and the physical meaning of the variables involved. The original poster expresses uncertainty about the conceptual understanding of the force diagram and the implications of the equations derived for the system.

hcpyz
Messages
2
Reaction score
2
The hypothesis is that the force of a real spring can be described as $$F = -kx + \alpha x^2$$ with x being the spring deformation and k its constant. The \alpha x^2 would be the force lost by the spring as x becomes too big. To test that, a system was build with block of mass m suspended by a vertical spring. Different blocks with different masses were used and, in the equilibrium state, the value y of its height in relation to the ground was registered. Worth mentioning that for the problem $$x = y_0 - y$$ with y_0 being the height of the lower end of the spring in relation to the ground when there is no block.

**The problem is**: Find a function y = y(m) in terms of k, alpha and y_0 .

**What I've done so far**

I thought that since we are dealing with a mass spring system we would find an equation for the system without any mass being weighted. So:
$$
-k(y_0) + \alpha(y_0)^2 = 0
$$
I don't feel very confident with that statement but moving on...
The I found an equation for the system when there's a mass being weighted, which would be found by doing the force diagram. This is being really confusing to me, so...

$$
P = mg = -kx + \alpha x^2
$$
Here I'm really confused with the minus sing. But well, moving on again...
$$
mg = -k(y_0 - y) + \alpha (y_0 - y)^2
$$
And then I thought that it would be a good idea to solve this system.

$$
\begin{cases}
-k(y_0) + \alpha(y_0)^2 = 0 \\
mg = -k(y_0 - y) + \alpha (y_0 - y)^2
\end{cases}
$$

I've tried doing it by hand and also with wolfram mathematica but it seems unsolvable thus I think I'm missing the conceptual part of it in the force diagram I built with the equation, am I getting the minus sing wrong?
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Delta2
Physics news on Phys.org
If ##~mg = -k(y_0 - y) + \alpha (y_0 - y)^2~,## what prevents you from solving the quadratic for ##(y_0-y)## and then moving ##y_0## to the other side of the equation? Wouldn't that give you ##y(m)##? Be sure to choose the solution that is physically meaningful.

Addendum on edit:
The "no mass" equation you have is incorrect. The variable ##y## is the height of the mass above ground. We are also given that the height above ground when no mass is hanging is ##y_0##. So if you substitute ##m=0## and ##y=y_0## in the force equation, you get $$0*g=-k(y_0-y_0)+\alpha(y_0-y_0)^2\implies0=0.$$Nothing usable here.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: hcpyz
kuruman said:
If ##~mg = -k(y_0 - y) + \alpha (y_0 - y)^2~,## what prevents you from solving the quadratic for ##(y_0-y)## and then moving ##y_0## to the other side of the equation? Wouldn't that give you ##y(m)##? Be sure to choose the solution that is physically meaningful.

Addendum on edit:
The "no mass" equation you have is incorrect. The variable ##y## is the height of the mass above ground. We are also given that the height above ground when no mass is hanging is ##y_0##. So if you substitute ##m=0## and ##y=y_0## in the force equation, you get $$0*g=-k(y_0-y_0)+\alpha(y_0-y_0)^2\implies0=0.$$Nothing usable here.
oh wow, that was way simpler than I was thinking. Thank you!
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: kuruman

Similar threads

Replies
11
Views
2K
Replies
6
Views
1K
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
Replies
4
Views
892
Replies
24
Views
4K
Replies
17
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
1K
Replies
7
Views
1K