Trouble understanding the influence of a real spring in a system

AI Thread Summary
The discussion focuses on understanding the forces acting on a mass-spring system, particularly the influence of a real spring's force described by the equation F = -kx + αx². The user is trying to derive a function y = y(m) that relates the height of a block suspended by the spring to its mass, using equilibrium conditions. Confusion arises regarding the correct application of the force equation and the interpretation of the variables involved. Clarifications suggest that the user should solve the quadratic equation derived from the force balance to find y(m), emphasizing the importance of choosing a physically meaningful solution. The conversation highlights the challenges of translating theoretical equations into practical scenarios.
hcpyz
Messages
2
Reaction score
2
The hypothesis is that the force of a real spring can be described as $$F = -kx + \alpha x^2$$ with x being the spring deformation and k its constant. The \alpha x^2 would be the force lost by the spring as x becomes too big. To test that, a system was build with block of mass m suspended by a vertical spring. Different blocks with different masses were used and, in the equilibrium state, the value y of its height in relation to the ground was registered. Worth mentioning that for the problem $$x = y_0 - y$$ with y_0 being the height of the lower end of the spring in relation to the ground when there is no block.

**The problem is**: Find a function y = y(m) in terms of k, alpha and y_0 .

**What I've done so far**

I thought that since we are dealing with a mass spring system we would find an equation for the system without any mass being weighted. So:
$$
-k(y_0) + \alpha(y_0)^2 = 0
$$
I don't feel very confident with that statement but moving on...
The I found an equation for the system when there's a mass being weighted, which would be found by doing the force diagram. This is being really confusing to me, so...

$$
P = mg = -kx + \alpha x^2
$$
Here I'm really confused with the minus sing. But well, moving on again...
$$
mg = -k(y_0 - y) + \alpha (y_0 - y)^2
$$
And then I thought that it would be a good idea to solve this system.

$$
\begin{cases}
-k(y_0) + \alpha(y_0)^2 = 0 \\
mg = -k(y_0 - y) + \alpha (y_0 - y)^2
\end{cases}
$$

I've tried doing it by hand and also with wolfram mathematica but it seems unsolvable thus I think I'm missing the conceptual part of it in the force diagram I built with the equation, am I getting the minus sing wrong?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
If ##~mg = -k(y_0 - y) + \alpha (y_0 - y)^2~,## what prevents you from solving the quadratic for ##(y_0-y)## and then moving ##y_0## to the other side of the equation? Wouldn't that give you ##y(m)##? Be sure to choose the solution that is physically meaningful.

Addendum on edit:
The "no mass" equation you have is incorrect. The variable ##y## is the height of the mass above ground. We are also given that the height above ground when no mass is hanging is ##y_0##. So if you substitute ##m=0## and ##y=y_0## in the force equation, you get $$0*g=-k(y_0-y_0)+\alpha(y_0-y_0)^2\implies0=0.$$Nothing usable here.
 
Last edited:
kuruman said:
If ##~mg = -k(y_0 - y) + \alpha (y_0 - y)^2~,## what prevents you from solving the quadratic for ##(y_0-y)## and then moving ##y_0## to the other side of the equation? Wouldn't that give you ##y(m)##? Be sure to choose the solution that is physically meaningful.

Addendum on edit:
The "no mass" equation you have is incorrect. The variable ##y## is the height of the mass above ground. We are also given that the height above ground when no mass is hanging is ##y_0##. So if you substitute ##m=0## and ##y=y_0## in the force equation, you get $$0*g=-k(y_0-y_0)+\alpha(y_0-y_0)^2\implies0=0.$$Nothing usable here.
oh wow, that was way simpler than I was thinking. Thank you!
 
TL;DR Summary: I came across this question from a Sri Lankan A-level textbook. Question - An ice cube with a length of 10 cm is immersed in water at 0 °C. An observer observes the ice cube from the water, and it seems to be 7.75 cm long. If the refractive index of water is 4/3, find the height of the ice cube immersed in the water. I could not understand how the apparent height of the ice cube in the water depends on the height of the ice cube immersed in the water. Does anyone have an...
Thread 'Variable mass system : water sprayed into a moving container'
Starting with the mass considerations #m(t)# is mass of water #M_{c}# mass of container and #M(t)# mass of total system $$M(t) = M_{C} + m(t)$$ $$\Rightarrow \frac{dM(t)}{dt} = \frac{dm(t)}{dt}$$ $$P_i = Mv + u \, dm$$ $$P_f = (M + dm)(v + dv)$$ $$\Delta P = M \, dv + (v - u) \, dm$$ $$F = \frac{dP}{dt} = M \frac{dv}{dt} + (v - u) \frac{dm}{dt}$$ $$F = u \frac{dm}{dt} = \rho A u^2$$ from conservation of momentum , the cannon recoils with the same force which it applies. $$\quad \frac{dm}{dt}...
Back
Top