Trying to prove which car hit which with physics

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    Car Physics
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the physics of a car collision scenario involving two stationary cars, A and B, where car B reverses into car A. Participants explore various methods to determine the dynamics of the collision, including momentum transfer, damage assessment, and potential evidence from vehicle data.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest using momentum and energy transfer principles to analyze the collision and prove that car B reversed into car A.
  • Others mention practical techniques used by police, such as examining the filament in lights to determine if reversing lights were on during the collision.
  • It is proposed that tire marks could indicate movement of the stationary vehicle if the brake or parking gear was engaged.
  • One participant shares an anecdote about a taxi driving backwards, raising questions about how such a scenario would appear in a collision context.
  • Discussion includes the insurance perspective, where liability often falls on the driver behind, regardless of the circumstances of the collision.
  • Some participants introduce the idea of using synchronized atomic clocks to measure elapsed time as a potential method to analyze the movement of the cars.
  • There is a query about whether damage to car B alone could indicate it was hit, considering the force transfer and structural integrity of the vehicles involved.
  • Another participant emphasizes that relative velocity is the key factor in collisions, regardless of whether one vehicle is at rest.
  • Some mention the possibility of using data recording equipment in cars to gather evidence about the collision dynamics.
  • One participant humorously notes the need for synchronized clocks before the accident to validate the atomic clock method.
  • There is a suggestion to check phone records to determine if either driver was distracted during the incident.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on how to analyze the collision, with no consensus on a definitive method or conclusion. Multiple competing ideas and hypotheses are presented throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on specific conditions such as the presence of data recording equipment, the state of the vehicles at the time of the collision, and the assumptions made about the physics involved in the collision dynamics.

Sporticus
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Say car A is stationary, and in front, car B is also stationary.

Car B then, at a slow speed, begins to reverse, and hits car A, causing damage to the front-end of car A.
There is no damage to the rear bumper of car B.

Using momentun transfer, energy transfer?, or what have you, is there any way of proving that car B reversed into car A, while disproving car A rear-ending car B?

Thanks for you thoughts.
 
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Not directly, in practice the police uses extra techniques:
The filament in lights which are smashed when they are on fails in a different way to lights that are off, this is used to tell for instance if someone was braking or not, so you could tell if the reversing lights were on.
It might also be possible to tell from damage to the gearbox which gear it was in.
 
Welcome to PF, Sporticus. Even in a low-speed collision, there is also some possibility that the innocent vehicle is moved enough to leave tire marks. Of course, either the brake or the parking gear would have to be in effect for that to occur.
 
As well as the location of the cast off debris.
 
About ten years ago, I went into New York early in the morning. As I turned onto Lexington, somewhere in the 40s, a taxi went flying past me, going the wrong way. But, the cute part was he was driving backwards, probably about 40 mph, so that he was headed the right way - just his velocity was wrong. I always wondered how that would have looked if he had hit me.
 
For insurance purposes up here, it is always the guy behind, regardless of circumstances. If I'm stopped at a red light behind you, and some guy slams into my car forcing it into yours, my insurance has to cover the damage to you, while the guilty guy's covers my damage and his own. It's considered a no-fault collision, though, so my rates couldn't be raised because of it. (Civil liability is a different matter; you could sue the other guy for injuries, but I'm safe.)
 
If both cars had synchronised atomic clocks on board before the accident, then the car which moved backwards would show a minutely smaller elapsed time on his atomic clock than the car that didn't move.

Time on car B < Time on car A
 
Just to dispel a notion that's been swirling in my head,

If Car A hits B, and B is at rest, and only car B sustains damage while A has not even a dent, is there not a way to tell if B was indeed hit?

Becasue if B were to hit A at rest, would it not transfer some force to the body at rest (A), and since a car is a large mass, and won't move easily, instead, the force is tranformed into denting the car surface.

Is that too oversimplified? I have an inkling there may be something to do with the strength of the composite matierials on each car, but if only one vehicle sustained damage, coundn't it be justified that it was b/c that vehcile was at rest, and had force/momentum transferred to it, that instead of moving the car, casued a structural damage?
 
Sporticus said:
Just to dispel a notion that's been swirling in my head,

If Car A hits B, and B is at rest, and only car B sustains damage while A has not even a dent, is there not a way to tell if B was indeed hit?

Becasue if B were to hit A at rest, would it not transfer some force to the body at rest (A), and since a car is a large mass, and won't move easily, instead, the force is tranformed into denting the car surface.

Is that too oversimplified? I have an inkling there may be something to do with the strength of the composite matierials on each car, but if only one vehicle sustained damage, coundn't it be justified that it was b/c that vehcile was at rest, and had force/momentum transferred to it, that instead of moving the car, casued a structural damage?
In principle, it doesn't matter if one is at rest. The only factor is their relative velocity. A going 10, B going 0 is the same as A going 30 and B going 20. Think of it this way: the bumpers can't tell if the wheels are spinning or not.

However, in practice a car at rest has different mechanisms keeping it that at a speed for 0 than those keeping it at a speed of 20.
 
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  • #10
If your car has any kind of data recording equipment on it, it might be possible to tell based on any sort of specific data. For example, correlating the speed you were traveling at when/if your airbag went off (if it did). Alternatively perhaps if the damage caused some sort of check engine light (or other warning light that could have been activated), it may have recorded when this CEL came on, and what was going on with the car at the time.
 
  • #11
YellowTaxi said:
If both cars had synchronised atomic clocks on board before the accident, then the car which moved backwards would show a minutely smaller elapsed time on his atomic clock than the car that didn't move.

Time on car B < Time on car A
Ah, yes, but they also should have had synchronized their clocks exactly before the accident! :smile:
 
  • #12
You could always check the phone records to see which driver was on his cell.
 

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