Two cylinders rotating with contact at an angle (reformulation of the problem)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a reformulated problem involving two cylinders that rotate in contact at an angle. Participants explore the dynamics of the system, considering forces, torques, and friction, with the goal of drawing a phase diagram for the angular velocities of the cylinders. The scope includes theoretical analysis and mathematical modeling.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the cylinders can rotate freely about their fixed axes unless influenced by the contact force and friction.
  • One participant questions whether translational motion along the axis of the cylinders is allowed, specifically for the case when the angle is ##\theta=\pi/2##.
  • Another participant asserts that translational motion along the axis is forbidden for both cylinders.
  • It is suggested that slipping is allowed for the rolls, particularly for nonzero angular velocities within the range ##\theta\in(0,\pi/2]##.
  • A participant provides a detailed mathematical formulation of the system, including the relative velocity at the point of contact and the moments associated with the friction forces acting on each cylinder.
  • The system of differential equations governing the dynamics of the cylinders is presented, indicating that solving it may be complex.
  • Another participant suggests that a qualitative analysis of the ordinary differential equations (ODE) may be necessary.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether translational motion is permitted and the nature of slipping between the cylinders. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these conditions on the system's dynamics.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the assumptions made about the motion of the cylinders, particularly concerning the allowed translational motion and the conditions under which slipping occurs. The complexity of the differential equations is acknowledged but not resolved.

wrobel
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Some time ago there was a problem with the following picture somewhere out here. I think this problem was underestimated a little bit.
t.png


Let us reformulate the problem. Assume that each cylinder, if it was not influenced by the other one, could rotate freely about its fixed axis. But the cylinders press each other with a force ##N>0##. The coefficient of dry friction between them is ##k>0##. Assume also that both cylinders experience torques ##\tau_P,\tau_Q##. The torques are constants and directed along the corresponding axes of cylinders. Moments of inertia ##J_P,J_Q## of cylinders are given.
The task is to draw a phase diagramme on the plane ##\omega_P,\omega_Q## for different values of parameters. Here ##\omega_P,\omega_Q## are the angular velocities. I even think that it would be interesting for an educational journal. I think to give it to my students.

Any comments are welcome :)
 
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In the case of ##\theta=\pi/2## torque of P and Q push each other to move along the axis. Do you allow such translation motion to P and Q ?
 
no, I consider the motion along the axis to be forbidden for both cylinders
 
So we allow the rolls slip in that case. In general we allow slip of the axis component of roll velocity v sin##\theta##.
 
anuttarasammyak said:
So we allow the rolls slip in that case.
yes and they are slipping for any nonzero angular velocities; ##\theta\in(0,\pi/2]##
 
@wrobel I'd be interested to see how you went about solving this. I haven't gotten very far o0)

Draw a Cartesian frame ##O\mathrm{xyz}## with ##O## at the point of contact of the cylinders, the ##\mathrm{y}## axis parallel to the axis of ##P## and the ##\mathrm{z}## axis pointing vertically upward. Let the unit vectors parallel to the axes of each cylinder be ##\mathbf{e}_P := \mathbf{e}_y## and ##\mathbf{e}_Q := \mathbf{e}_y \cos{\theta} + \mathbf{e}_x\sin{\theta}##. Writing ##\boldsymbol{\omega}_P = \omega_P \mathbf{e}_P## and ##\boldsymbol{\omega}_Q = \omega_Q \mathbf{e}_Q## the relative velocity of the cylinders at the point of contact is $$\boldsymbol{V} := \boldsymbol{v}_P(O,t) - \boldsymbol{v}_Q(O,t) = (r_p \boldsymbol{\omega}_P + r_Q \boldsymbol{\omega}_Q) \times \mathbf{e}_z = \mathbf{e}_x(r_P \omega_P + r_Q \omega_Q \cos{\theta}) - \mathbf{e}_y r_Q \omega_Q \sin{\theta} $$Now define ##\hat{\boldsymbol{V}} := \boldsymbol{V} / |\mathbf{V}|##. The friction force acting on ##P## due to ##Q## is ##\mathbf{F}_P = - k N \hat{\boldsymbol{V}} = - \mathbf{F}_Q##. Let ##\mathcal{A}_P## and ##\mathcal{A}_Q## be arbitrary points along the axes of ##P## and ##Q## respectively. The moment ##\Gamma_P## associated with ##\mathbf{F}_P## about the axis ##(\mathcal{A}_P, \mathbf{e}_y)## of ##P## is$$\Gamma_P = r_P \mathbf{e}_z \times (- k N \hat{\boldsymbol{V}}) \cdot \mathbf{e}_y = \frac{-r_P k N(r_P \omega_P + r_Q \omega_Q \cos{\theta})}{|\boldsymbol{V}|}$$Similarly, the moment ##\Gamma_Q## associated with ##\mathbf{F}_Q## about the axis ##(\mathcal{A}_Q, \mathbf{e}_Q)## of ##Q## is $$\begin{align*}

\Gamma_Q &= -r_Q \mathbf{e}_z \times (k N \hat{\boldsymbol{V}}) \cdot (\mathbf{e}_y \cos{\theta} + \mathbf{e}_x\sin{\theta}) \\ \\

&= \frac{-r_Q k N([r_p \omega_p + r_Q \omega_Q \cos{\theta}]\cos{\theta} + r_Q \omega_Q \sin^2{\theta})}{|\boldsymbol{V}|} = \frac{-r_Q k N(r_p \omega_p \cos{\theta} + r_Q \omega_Q )}{|\boldsymbol{V}|}

\end{align*}$$The system of differential equations to solve is$$\begin{bmatrix} \dot{\omega}_P \\ \dot{\omega}_Q \end{bmatrix} = \begin{bmatrix} \frac{1}{J_P} (\tau_P + \Gamma_P) \\ \frac{1}{J_Q} (\tau_Q + \Gamma_Q) \end{bmatrix}$$and it looks like it is a bit difficult to solve :nb)
 
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Qualitative analysis of ODE is needed I guess
 
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