U.S. warns Germany on World Cup sex workers

[J77]

I like the key ally thing

...and the US won't be in Germany long enough for it to matter, or perhaps this is what they mean - it'll give the team something to do for the rest of June

There isn't much Germany can do about this - the influx from Poland and beyond, of people ready to get some cash, will be massive - and this will include the sex workers.

For what it's worth, I don't like prostitution. I live in Amsterdam, so see it in the open all the time, and even though it's leagl over here, I can't help but thinking that a lot of the girls are still being exploited - and a lot of them look like they've been brough over from Eastern Europe.

I think the worst thing I've heard about the WC is the thing about if you're not white, you may not come out of certain areas of Germany alive - this to me is much more worrying, and a prolem in East European football in general, than the sex thing.

 

[Moonbear]

However, by no means do I excuse myself for allowing this to happen in the first place;

Unless you voted those particular people into office, or didn't show up to the polls to vote for the opponent, how did you allow it in the first place? A democracy means that sometimes you're in the minority and what you think is right doesn't happen. It also means that every so many years, depending on the office, you have a chance to change things. I'll still take that any day over someone appointing themself to office for life. Administrations come and go. I don't see any reason to be ashamed or to disparage the entire country and all its citizens and the entire system of government because of a few years when you don't agree with the administrative policies. If you feel ashamed of yourself for some reason, that's your perogative...maybe you feel you should have run for office or been more vocal and weren't, or whatever, but then instead of saying the whole country should be embarrassed, do something.

People have disliked presidents before...usually everyone who was in the minority when voting for them, or when they don't live up to their promises, or when things turn sour for the country and everyone blames the president (justly or unjustly so). That doesn't mean we should hang our heads in shame and give up on the entire country and the entire system of government. More often than not, it's worked. Instead, keep moving forward and fix what's broken.

 

[Anttech]

The purpose of the current thread is to simply ask whether or not you believe that the U.S. has the moral authority, with either its own citizens only or with all citizens everywhere, to oppose activities anywhere that are inherently harmful and dehumanizing?

Harmful and dehumanizing to whom? Prosition is legal in many European countries, Belgium, Netherlands, Germany to name a few.

 

[Cyrus]

It's Pengwuino, what do you expect from him

Take a deep breath, and then punch a hole or two in the wall (Hell, you can use pengwuino's face for all I care ).

 

[kyleb]

Moonbear, you are overlooking my point by farcically exaggerating my stance here:

That doesn't mean we should hang our heads in shame and give up on the entire country and the entire system of government.

I made no such suggestions. So at this point I'm compelled to ask; should I bother attempting to reiterate my position for you, or are you simply interested in attempting to discredit it?

 

[Moonbear]

I made no such suggestions. So at this point I'm compelled to ask; should I bother attempting to reiterate my position for you, or are you simply interested in attempting to discredit it?

It really isn't worth arguing over. You feel however you feel, and I feel how I feel, and it's totally aside from the topic at hand, so there's really no point continuing on this particular point, whether I've misunderstood you or not.

 

[kyleb]

I wasn't looking for an argument by any means. Rather, I was asking if that was what you were doing when you played melodramatic with my position, seeing as how if that was done simply in search of an argument there wouldn't rightly be any point in rephrasing myself. I find the topic of this thread fascinating, and I'm even more interested in lack of attention such subject matter gets. So while you may see not point in continuing here, I am quite interested in seeing any reasonable discussion on the matter that may come.

 

[jimmie]

Harmful and dehumanizing to whom?

The quote below was made by Rice, cited within the CNN article.

"Together we will stop at nothing to end the debasement of our fellow men," she said.

Apparently, she used the word "we" to represent the U.S., and the words "fellow men" to represent, well, all other human beings.

So, back to my original question and the intended topic of discussion; who believes that the U.S. has the moral authority to oppose activities anywhere that are inherently harmful and dehumanizing, to fellow human beings?

Please consider that my question is as broad as their statement, referring to not only prostitution but all "activities that are inherently harmful and dehumanizing".

 

[loseyourname]

Well, I don't think one needs moral authority to make moral suggestions, but I suppose I'm in the minority on that. Even a crazed lunatic like Bin Laden, who has no moral authority whatsoever on anything, made suggestions to the US that they would good to heed. So when the US does something like decry human rights abuses in other countries, even though there is no doubt that such abuses also occur at the hands of agents of the US government from time to time, they are still right to do so.

I don't really agree that prostitution has to be debasing and exploitative, but I don't doubt that much of it is, and I don't doubt that some of it will occur thanks to the presence of the world cup. Anyone that opposes such things has the right to speak out against it, including Condi.

 

[kyleb]

Eaxactly, of course we are in the right for speaking up against human trafficking. There is no justification needed there for any but those with the weakest grasps on morality, and no matter how much of a hypocrite one might argue we look like for speaking up. The problem is that we suggested that German Government take away freedoms from their people, and there is no excuse for doing that.

 

[jimmie]

Well, I don't think one needs moral authority to make moral suggestions,

Anyone can make a moral suggestion.

That has already been established.

Anyways, prostitution is only the little picture. As I said earlier, let's take a look at the whole picture of various activities anywhere that are inherently harmful and dehumanizing.

Why doesn't the U.S. make more moral suggestions on various other harmful and dehumanizing topics, as well as adhere to its all of its own suggestions, so as to truly be the moral authority it projects itself to be?

 

[Moonbear]

I wasn't looking for an argument by any means. Rather, I was asking if that was what you were doing when you played melodramatic with my position, seeing as how if that was done simply in search of an argument there wouldn't rightly be any point in rephrasing myself. I find the topic of this thread fascinating, and I'm even more interested in lack of attention such subject matter gets. So while you may see not point in continuing here, I am quite interested in seeing any reasonable discussion on the matter that may come.

I wasn't "playing melodramatic," that's how your position really sounded to me. If I've misunderstood you and you wish to continue on that particular point, rather than derail the thread with it, you can contact me by PM and we can continue that side discussion there.

 

[kyleb]

Anyone can make a moral suggestion.

That has already been established.

Anyways, prostitution is only the little picture. As I said earlier, let's take a look at the whole picture of various activities anywhere that are inherently harmful and dehumanizing.

Why doesn't the U.S. make more moral suggestions on various other harmful and dehumanizing topics, as well as adhere to its all of its own suggestions, so as to truly be the moral authority it projects itself to be?

I have to take issue with your line of question as it implies that prostitution is inherently harmful and dehumanizing, and opinion that is far from commonly agreed upon. If you care to replace "prostitution" with "human trafficking" then I think you will find the answer to your question quite obvious. ;)

 

[jimmie]

I think you will find the answer to your question quite obvious.

Really? The question was: why doesn't the U.S. make more moral suggestions on various other harmful and dehumanizing topics, as well as adhere to its all of its own suggestions, so as to truly be the moral authority it projects itself to be?

If the answer is obvious, please share it with us.

 

[Moonbear]

Why doesn't the U.S. make more moral suggestions on various other harmful and dehumanizing topics, as well as adhere to its all of its own suggestions, so as to truly be the moral authority it projects itself to be?

Does one have to claim moral authority to make suggestions based on their own moral values? Nobody is intervening or twisting arms of German officials and forcing them to accept their views, just making a statement of opinion...granted, an official statement of opinion, but it's just an opinion nonetheless.

And, I agree with kyleb's point that you're assuming in your argument that prostitution is harmful and dehumanizing, which remains debateable.

 

[Danger]

i have a Canadian friend who doesn't have comprehensive health insurance (or well she doesn't have any at all) over there.

Where the hell did you get that? Everyone up here is covered, as long as they're in the system. Even I am, and I haven't filed a tax return since '79. Now that I can afford it, my premium is $39 per month; before that it was susbidized to match my income. Someone with no income is covered through Social Assistance, as long as he/she applies for it. I don't know what you mean by 'comprehensive', but anything that you need to continue living, and improve if possible, is provided. I expect propoganda from an 'America: Love It or Leave It" guy like you, but that's just total bull****.

 

[jimmie]

Does one have to claim moral authority to make suggestions based on their own moral values?

I have already addressed that point. Again, anyone can make a moral suggestion.

And, I agree with kyleb's point that you're assuming in your argument that prostitution is harmful and dehumanizing, which remains debateable.

With anything, it depends on what one believes, and that was the whole point of my original question.

Do you believe...? It's a yes or no question.

Will anyone address my original question?

The purpose of the current thread is to simply ask whether or not you believe that the U.S. has the moral authority, with either its own citizens only or with all citizens everywhere, to oppose activities anywhere that are inherently harmful and dehumanizing?

Will anyone address the second question?

2) Why doesn't the U.S. make more moral suggestions on various other harmful and dehumanizing topics, as well as adhere to its all of its own suggestions, so as to truly be the moral authority it projects itself to be?

 

[Moonbear]

The purpose of the current thread is to simply ask whether or not you believe that the U.S. has the moral authority, with either its own citizens only or with all citizens everywhere, to oppose activities anywhere that are inherently harmful and dehumanizing?

The problem is that you've set it up with a premise linked to prostitution, which is not inherently harmful and dehumanizing.

 

[jimmie]

The problem is that you've set it up with a premise linked to prostitution, which is not inherently harmful and dehumanizing.

Oh.

Thanks for your insight.

 

[loseyourname]

Jimmie, I moved your thread here to hopefully remove the politics from it so people can just address your ethical question.

 

[jimmie]

Jimmie, I moved your thread here to hopefully remove the politics from it so people can just address your ethical question.

Ok.

Thanks for the consideration.

 

[Danger]

Good move, LYN, but I suspect that the politics can't be removed. Prostitution has never been an ethical issue; it's purely a matter of morality, which is determined by religious/political indoctrination.

 

[kyleb]

Really? The question was: why doesn't the U.S. make more moral suggestions on various other harmful and dehumanizing topics, as well as adhere to its all of its own suggestions, so as to truly be the moral authority it projects itself to be?

If the answer is obvious, please share it with us.

Like I said, replace "prostitution" with "human trafficking" and your question is:

why doesn't the U.S. make more moral suggestions on various other harmful and dehumanizing topics (like human trafficking), as well as adhere to its all of its own suggestions, so as to truly be the moral authority it projects itself to be?

The answer being; we do. Well, the "adhere" bit can be contested to various degrees depending on the specific issue, but we do make efforts against human trafficking and the like and we offer plenty of suggestions on such matters as well. As for moral authority, again, the standing up against such things as inarguably wrong as human trafficking is the authority in itself.

 

[J77]

Going back to the thread title...

If it's about the US imposing it's moral views on European policy.

I'm not sure if many Europeans care what the US think these days. Certainly when I read a story like this, ie. on the sex workers and the WC, it amuses me. I shouldn't really brush over the story but beacuse of GWB, stories that come out of the US don't hold much credibility for me any more. It's a generalistion I shouldn't make but it seems to be at the fore these days.