Unconventional Strategies for Defeating a Robotic Army in Urban Warfare

[Khatti]

Those killer robots out there would be a nail, and the people looking at them would have to be so used to using this form of technology that it would occur to them that this is the hammer.

I think I need to clarify what I meant here, something I should have done the first time. If you have a community that can put together microbes like this they must be a long standing community. That means that they were doing something with biological engineering before the warring robots came. I would suggest that you give some thought to what. Terraforming? Taking advantage of Mars' corporate tax rate? Fleeing from persecution seems highly unlikely, but I suppose that would be another thought. I don't think just one technician or engineer could do this, it would have to be a community. What does this community do when not fighting the good fight?

On a wholly unrelated issue: GTOM, Czcibor, Kashishi--man I've missed you guys!

 

[Czcibor]

Thanks.

Microbes don't have to survive for long, since the intended use is to spray them onto robots with a bomb. I think the line between nanobots and microbes is rather blurred in that case.

Flyers should rely on rocket engines instead of rotors.
Yes, i have also thought about the combo of sandstorm interferes with optics and developed emp weapons can be pretty bad, human marines can get close to enemy tanks. The defenders had to develop really advanced sensor technology to effectively use the laser dome even during sandstorm (well that also effect kinetic bomb accuracy)

I'm not sure whether you don't get me right or you already interpreted it creatively to fit your setting...

For purpose of my setting I faced with the following problem.

Would AI be good enough to lead battle vehicle? If not then how to communicate without giving away position or risking interruption? Then laser communication.

You don't have to use EMP for that purpose. Merely risk that one would weaponize micro wave ovens to make enough noise electromagnetic to disturb communication is enough.
And I don't mean here laser used to shoot down anything... just communication.

Imagine that because of storm whole army is left in default mode and mostly blind. Or even the best - after a few cases of friendly fire it was set to require direct contact with HQ to confirm target and get permission to fire. And some guys with bazookas (or whatever) destroy it one by one...

 

[GTOM]

Czcibor: Sorry i had to think about it.
On one hand, robots have definitally good enough friend or foe system, and mission planners knew they have to deal with more or less dusty atmosphere.
On the other hand, you are right , for decades, they thought, why should we bother with outdated technology, if they use fog bombs inside a space colony, they will surely disperse chaff also, that isn't good enough reason to use radios. So their radio equipment will be poor at best.
Without effective communication, dumb robots don't retreat even if their squadron is overpowered, when they finally launch counterattack, humans can quickly leave their position, and leave a few bazookas on timers or proximity fuses... robotanks see, so they still fire at us, shell the area, friendly fire takes its toll.
Then attack on another place with fast safe aerial transport.

That means that they were doing something with biological engineering before the warring robots came.

Well there will be a megacorp on Earth that performed a number of nazi experiments on garbage heap inhabitants in order to perfect drugs, alter human behavior and genes...
They have good connections on Mars also.
http://www.iflscience.com/space/darpa-wants-terraform-mars
(I find full terraforming quite implausible due to thin atmosphere and lack of strong magnetosphere)
A scientist (friend to main scientist character) joins to them in order to expose them, after it, he can go to Mars to give them the developments. Although i still wonder whether it has any plausibility that theese microbes can do significant damage in a reasonable time scale?

How should be human wounds treated in thin atmosphere? Cauterize them with lasers, and put some plastic on them that soldifies quickly in order to prevent depressurization?

 

[Czcibor]

Czcibor: Sorry i had to think about it.
On one hand, robots have definitally good enough friend or foe system, and mission planners knew they have to deal with more or less dusty atmosphere.
[...]
Without effective communication, dumb robots don't retreat even if their squadron is overpowered, when they finally launch counterattack, humans can quickly leave their position, and leave a few bazookas on timers or proximity fuses... robotanks see, so they still fire at us, shell the area, friendly fire takes its toll.

Let me please specify this idea a bit more
1) friend or foe actually works quite well, most of the time
2) unfortunately there were a few cases (for million of robots or so) of friendly fire
3) a low rank engineer got scolded for that and threatened that next robot lost to friendly fire would be just subtracted from his salary
4) he set - robots on default, without a contact with base are not allowed to open fire
5) resistance deducted such flaw, because in case of a few attacks answering with fire was slow at start, as if someone had to confirm specific targets or had to manually allow firing at will
6) in actual chaotic confrontation in the dust storm the robots can turned out not so dumb, just not allowed to fire :D

How should be human wounds treated in thin atmosphere? Cauterize them with lasers, and put some plastic on them that soldifies quickly in order to prevent depressurization?

I would think some ready sets halfway between band aid and duct tape... To be applied immediately.

EDIT: because of need of treating wound that would be under space suit... glue-like treating wound liquid in spray and pressurize everything by duct tape.

EDIT2: Have you seen "spandex spacesuit"?

 

[GTOM]

Yes I have seen spandex spacesuit, they will definitally use it (in less dangerous environments, filtered cosmic rays, no micrometeors), it is cool. :)

Hmm good ideas about IFF. Although i think it should rather apply to the before war scene, the raid on embassy. ("I know it is ridicolous, but robot, you can't pump someone full of lead because throwing a molotov to the fence. Fire only when absolutely sure." Then start the raid with taking out laser control dishes and fill the area with smoke. )
Thanks. :)
Although i think, they will surely have a protocol to attack enemy of friend.

 

[GTOM]

I though about another issue.
Waste heat treatment can be done by heat sinks and radiator wings in space, but the later is quite vulnerable. Inside a space colony, one can use ventillator in thick atmosphere. Robots might have problems with thin, dusty atmosphere. Maybe a ventillation system can be a place for the corrosive microbes, and cause performance problems in a week.

 

[tom aaron]

A couple of well placed thermo nuclear weapons are a match for any robot army. Guidance systems becoming precise to a few meters.

The issue with any credible warfare on a large nation or planetary scale is that nations facing annihilation don't go 'oops' and not get out their big toys. Civilizations with FTL or going to other planets..or advanced robotics do not rely on robots holding laser guns that seem to miss hitting their target. They will have Mutual destructive capabilities...the USS and Soviets already had this 50 years ago.

Any robot scenario has more credibility in some near future dystopia type scenario. A totalitarian state that is trying to over manage society for whatever reason. Perhaps not 'evil' but rather some artificial intelligence on some wrong track. Robots deployed to enforce what might appear to be silly things rather than controlled for some political goal.

Anyways, robots deployed because they are 'better' is just arm escalation. 'Better' had led to nuclear weapons. Make a robotic army better than ours and we feel threatend. We escalate by targeting your leaders and infrastructure with a nuclear tipped missile. The Iranian regime would be radioactive burnt toast tomorrow if they sent robots against the Israelis or Americans.

 

[Czcibor]

GTOM:
I think that you gave for other people on the forum a bit too hard challenge. I mean seriously. For a planet without breathable atmosphere any robot army is under normal conditions clearly superior to any biological army. To deal with this problem:
1) Human and organization factor is the weakest part. Whole class of problems how to manage those armies, problems with cheapest contractors, cutting cost on middle management, logistic problems, internal fights within corporation that makes army which is theoretically quite good to turn into an embarrassing scandal (think in line of Winter War, except a corporation don't mass execute its officers and had to replace them with freshly promoted privates, it just downsized middle management, and replaced them with interns and temp workers)
2) Terraforming planet enough to allow GMO life to thrive (you may add doing it on a huge loan...). You need some oxygen, humans would still have to run in breathing apparatus.
3) Defender's advantage:
a) fight on long range lasers between bases and attacking fleet, turn it into matter of power generation and dissipating heat, just one who has planet can use cheap nuclear reactors (yes, concrete is cheap) and instead of using complicated and vulnerable heat sinks, can just turn into steam another hundred of cubic metres of water
b) transport challenge - it doesn't it matter whether invader has an overwhelming army, it matters whether can transport in one go enough soldiers. If not that invasion ends up with defenders slaughtering all beachheads before their reinforcements come.

 

[GTOM]

I think that you gave for other people on the forum a bit too hard challenge. I mean seriously. For a planet without breathable atmosphere any robot army is under normal conditions clearly superior to any biological army.

Good point as usual. :) I don't think that terraforming is realistic, but due to point 3a and 3b and also 1 (before war executing or at least investigating a number of people for conspiracy, unwillingness to support such a big and risky war) they wouldn't have any chance against Mars if their robots weren't superior, the robo army were prepared for overtaking asteroid colonies one by one, they don't have small planetoid sized ships.
Most human defenders have to fill logistic, mechanic, medical roles, a small percent of them mounts tanks, jetcopters, powered personal armors.

The issue with any credible warfare on a large nation or planetary scale is that nations facing annihilation don't go 'oops' and not get out their big toys.

Interplanetary laws makes it quite clear, that losing the war isn't annihilation people can still live, leaders can go to exile. Using nukes (or large scale asteroid bombardment) that is annihilation, if the leader's own men don't stop him making such things, they will be killed also.

 

[Czcibor]

I don't think that terraforming is realistic, but due to point 3a and 3b and also 1 (before war executing or at least investigating a number of people for conspiracy, unwillingness to support such a big and risky war) they wouldn't have any chance against Mars if their robots weren't superior, the robo army were prepared for overtaking asteroid colonies one by one, they don't have small planetoid sized ships.
Most human defenders have to fill logistic, mechanic, medical roles, a small percent of them mounts tanks, jetcopters, powered personal armors.

I used to consider terraforming as unrealistic, but it seems feasible, just I'm not convinced fully worth the effort. And no idea whether it fits your setting. Very nice study, that would pass this forum guidelines for respectable enough sources: ;)

www2.isunet.edu/index.php?option=com_docman&task=doc_download&gid=334

Executive summary:
-build a few nuclear power plants and using local mines start producing tetrafluoromethane which is 6500 times more potent greenhouse gas than CO2
-ram a few comets to bring additional air (either on ice cap, or to create a nice round lakes near equator)
-watch a while of runaway greenohouse effect after your ice cap melt all CO2
-breed a black, UV resistant lichen and let it spread around (O2 + decreasing albedo)

EDIT: Anyway, what about building seas/lakes that have higher salt content:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freezing-point_depression

 

[Khatti]

I used to consider terraforming as unrealistic, but it seems feasible, just I'm not convinced fully worth the effort.

I'll do you one better. In some of my stories people put spaceports in desert environments on worlds that are Earthlike (though they try and stay away from too much sand, what they really like are plateaus). The idea is that shuttle service in this environment is rarely interrupted by weather (and hopefully sandstorms) so service is near continuous. Because the environment is dry and hot they build domed environments like you would need on Mars to survive. But here it is merely done for comfort--after all, by this time this is an old technology.

 

[Czcibor]

I'll do you one better. In some of my stories people put spaceports in desert environments on worlds that are Earthlike (though they try and stay away from too much sand, what they really like are plateaus). The idea is that shuttle service in this environment is rarely interrupted by weather (and hopefully sandstorms) so service is near continuous. Because the environment is dry and hot they build domed environments like you would need on Mars to survive. But here it is merely done for comfort--after all, by this time this is an old technology.

I toyed with idea of domes to protect city from unpleasant weather for my setting. There were some extra arguments for like no fuel burning cars / industry in housing complexes. But I reached a conclusion, that anyway for all practical purposes such idea would be too expensive, while most of connection between buildings is already protected from sand storm / awful rain.

Anyway - do you get a greenhouse for your citizens? ;) I mean hot and dry climate would be turned into humid and very hot by default unless you spend a fortune on air conditioning :D

 

[Khatti]

Anyway - do you get a greenhouse for your citizens? ;) I mean hot and dry climate would be turned into humid and very hot by default unless you spend a fortune on air conditioning :D

My characters would spend the fortune on air conditioning, and the technology to darken the domes against sunlight like we do with sunglasses, and the technology to turn the domes into solar collected for electricity--as I said, the idea is that this is, by the time of my stories, a very tried and true technology. The humidity thing would have to be solved of course--but wouldn't it have to be solved on Mars as well?

I tend to view cost as relative in this case. After all, a domed city in the desert is far more useful and practical than a sports stadium. The other thought is that the cost of the domed city overrides the cost of shuttle delays due to weather. Finally the buildings and apartments underneath the dome could be produced very cheaply since the only real concern would be for privacy.

 

[GTOM]

Executive summary:
-build a few nuclear power plants and using local mines start producing tetrafluoromethane which is 6500 times more potent greenhouse gas than CO2
-ram a few comets to bring additional air (either on ice cap, or to create a nice round lakes near equator)
-watch a while of runaway greenohouse effect after your ice cap melt all CO2
-breed a black, UV resistant lichen and let it spread around (O2 + decreasing albedo)

I will read through the PDF when i can. In order to long lasting effects, magnetosphere is also needed.
Otherwise i thought, maybe there should be permanent dark combat on Mars. Explanation : so there are the mega lasers, it is logical, that they are near to the cities, power, spare parts etc close. A large scale kinetic bombardment that overwhelms them, most likely also ruins the cities.
So the fleet rather starts throwing sandbags, to engulf the entire area in thick, untransparent dust clouds, so,even if the laser is on the top of Mount Olympos, aerial units can get close. If the laser isn't so high even tanks with lasers and coilguns can get close enough, so maybe defenders rather put concrete and sandbags around them to make them more protected... so they can't be turned against surface units at all, but still serve anti fleet protection.
(Theoretically, a ship could move into a position to attack horizontally the defenders... but to penetrate so much atmosphere, even a quite large ship needs to descend into low orbit... and expose itself to anti-satellite missiles, it is a rather risky movement.)

 

[Czcibor]

I will read through the PDF when i can. In order to long lasting effects, magnetosphere is also needed.

You need an atmosphere for many millions of years?

(serious question - because Venus could keep its ultradense atmosphere in spite of lack of magnetic field... so you can have here some leeway)

 

[GTOM]

I wonder, how much could a martian sand storm really help? Does it create a thick fog of war in UV and IR sight also? (This is a question about real physics.
I don't know whether we can be optimistic or pessimistic in the terraformation matter, but i think they could only begin it with mass dumping pollution in the air, so conditions didnt change dramatically.)

I see that it a bit cliche that EMP is some super robo destroyer, with Faraday cages and over-voltage protection. (Although an EMP greande could create shrapnels that damage the cage, so the following current can get in, and aggravate damage.)

Maybe being made of metal could be turned to a disadvantage? Humans need a simple spandex pressure suit, a plastic bottle of high pressure pure oxygen, a gun... and a passive radar that absorbs the radio waves, and turns them visible would be quite helpful. (Maybe guns and that radar could also have only a minimal amount of metallic components?)

Droids are fully made of metal, and since they were preapred to fight in metallic environments, they didnt cared about developing some new super radar camofluege.

 

[Czcibor]

One more idea - you want a victory of bio army? Make marginal cost of producing one uplifted animal that would defend the planet, not much higher than one bag of potatoes. And face the power of fully armed and operational... zerg rush.

 

[Artribution]

wonder what kind of strategic and other errors are believable?

You've said your command AI knows a lot about strategy. Is it sentient?

If so, real sentience needs at least some of the basic emotions - desire, happiness, fear, attachment - without which no machine would particularly want to exist or do a good job wiping out rebels.

Maybe your AI has a fine grounding in strategy, but is emotionally immature.

 

[GTOM]

I don't think the main AI can truly feel emotions (although it could learn that illogical pairing of human thoughts funny for example)
But there will be a number of emotions in the chain of command, most dominant is fear, we have to attack, otherwise they invade us!

Czibor : you gave me the idea to use a beetle swarm, insects are more tolerant for extreme martian conditions, altough they still need an oxygen source.
Good thing, the droids don't recognize that small things as threat.
Bad thing, they can't do much damage, but they stick themselves to the droids, and produce acid, it only have to damage the Faraday cage.
Equip droids with flamethrowers is a major setback at least.

 

[Hornbein]

I think that robots weakness is their inefficiency. Biological organisms are much more efficient. It's amazing how much they can do with a small quantity of food.

Robots of today rely on batteries or gasoline.

It will be a long time before robots are anywhere near as efficient as bacteria.

 

[Drakkith]

I think that robots weakness is their inefficiency. Biological organisms are much more efficient. It's amazing how much they can do with a small quantity of food.

People can't operate continuously with less than about 1,000 - 1,500 calories per day at minimum. And that's just for basic functions, not heavy exertion. In addition, you can't simply turn people off when you don't need them. Even a completely idle camp of soldiers still needs to be continuously fed.

 

[GTOM]

Is there any believable way to crack IFF?
As far as i know, encryption use 100 or 1000 digit prime numbers, even a quantum computer would have troube with calculating every possibilities.
However, what if small nanobots can get between drones, and simply they record the signals, then an enemy drone could simply send the very same signal? (While the nanos add some noise to original signal)
An analogy would be make a photo of someone and create a holomask that mimics his face.
(That would be something unprecedented super technology.)

 

[Hornbein]

People can't operate continuously with less than about 1,000 - 1,500 calories per day at minimum. And that's just for basic functions, not heavy exertion. In addition, you can't simply turn people off when you don't need them. Even a completely idle camp of soldiers still needs to be continuously fed.

True, but it's better than batteries.

 

[James Holland]

True, but it's better than batteries.

but what about charging batteries?
of course AA batteries wouldn't work but one could plug into charge a robot or probably develop a way for them to deploy solar charging (not in battle but before it coz would prove to be a obvious weak spot)

 

[James Holland]

I am assuing this is the robot army of an invading Alien force. as such you should assume that in terms of robotics and and programing they should be more advanced then what we can currently do. To that end the robots should be able to process tasks and act indipendantly even if there is a central disbatch overseeing them. Blocking the signal won't stop them but it would force them to rely on their own processing power rather then receiving new orders from disbatch.

An EMP is always a good start as Phinds suggested, however its easily conceivable that they would be shielded as that is something we can easily do today, The EMP can still work but it would have to be extremely powerful so that can set up some drama for the heroes, perhaps there are a limited number of EMPS powerful enough, maybe setting off the burst would signal their location ect...

As for the Robots not learning that is a stretch, we may not have sentient AI today but we have programs that are capable of learning in the realms of its mission. for example Decent chess programs can learn your moves and adapt to your style in short order. A tactical program would quickly figure out the scarecrow routine.

All that being said and done...if your Heroes have access to Jeff Goldbloom and a Mac Book you should be all set. ;)

But what if this is upon some hyperthetical planet were the tech is equal

 

[Drakkith]

True, but it's better than batteries.

Not necessarily. It depends on a lot of factors which we don't have. There are advantages and disadvantages to both though.

 

[Drakkith]

But what if this is upon some hyperthetical planet were the tech is equal

That's up to the OP and how they write their story.

 

[James Holland]

That's up to the OP and how they write their story.

true. i was just writing thoughts

 

[GTOM]

But what if this is upon some hyperthetical planet were the tech is equal

In my story, robots are human technology, those have alien technology who want to develop monster armies, find some way to mess robots etc.

(Three situation, monster army attack japanese nuclear research facility, after Fukushima, they built it on a remote tropical island, urban warfare on Mars, developed robots vs weak AIs and humans, battle in hollowed out asteroid, see Descent game, Appleseed 2 for example)

 

[Drakkith]

However, what if small nanobots can get between drones, and simply they record the signals, then an enemy drone could simply send the very same signal?

I believe IFF can already be picked up by everyone within range when the IFF on the target is "pinged" and sends a return signal. The point of IFF is to help in identifying friendly troops/vehicles, but it is not the only way. A good command and control unit will know where their subordinate units are to a varying degree of accuracy depending on the circumstances. Merely mimicking the IFF signal isn't a guarantee that the enemy won't shoot you.

An analogy would be make a photo of someone and create a holomask that mimics his face.
(That would be something unprecedented super technology.)

I think a better analogy is that IFF is very similar to the sign-countersign used when ground troops encounter an unknown party and are trying to figure out if they are friendly or not. Even if you know the countersign, they're still going to shoot you the moment they see you're not wearing the same uniform as they are.