Unconventional Strategies for Defeating a Robotic Army in Urban Warfare

[GTOM]

I meant, without special equipment, a land bot is completely unable to swim.
The disintegrator crystals have protecting, but they have to open it in order to use the crystal to take out the incoming missile, that is the point, where a special missile can unleash the ultrasonic wave. Without knowing the exact frequency to cripple the crystal, it isn't something really obvious i think.
But if it is lame, i try to find something better to counter the disintegrator magitech.
Whoops i realized a problem, that most projectiles are supersonic... then they should emit some special beam... or have superstrong magnets to counter the disintegrator plasma, or some pure magic.

My other problem with naval ships, that they are quite big and valuable targets and vulnerable to orbital kinetic bombardment. Producing hydrogen fuel for flyers and spaceships are very cheap.

Well, the robots meant to invade Earth countries, produced in Earth factories, otherwise Mercury also produces invasion forces suited to operate in space colony conditions. (although it is still different from swamp and tropical conditions )

 

[Drakkith]

Well, your original question was what can a resistance group do to counter a robot army. A serious flaw in their weaponry is a little too easy and obvious in my opinion.

I would avoid using "gimmicks" that trivialize a significant advantage for one side. What's the point of them having this advantage if your just going to take it away? Better to cut it out of the story completely and use the space for things that matter.

I also get the feeling that you aren't treating this robot army like an actual army. By necessity, a robot army is going to be extremely difficult to hack and reprogram, otherwise they wouldn't be in use to begin with. That's not to say that you can't hack them, but that it should be a significant challenge to do and present a real threat to whoever has to do it. (Physically sneaking into a command center or something.)There shouldn't be any obvious, crippling weaknesses in a technical sense, otherwise your story becomes boring.

Real world offensive and defensive ECM (electronic countermeasures) is pretty in-depth and should serve as a good example of what can and can't be done.

One suggestion: Have you thought about humans in powered armor? You already have robots roaming around, and current work on powered armor is promising. Many of the advancements in one directly apply to the other. One advantage humans may have over robots is an adaptable, armored weapons platform in the form of power armor.

 

[GTOM]

I didnt say they are easy to hack.
Yes, there will be powered battle armors also.
There won't be any flaw in modern weapons, but the main story arc is about finding alienware stuff, so there will be a sudden jump in technology, i thought one of them is disintigrators, an other one is to counter them (in a way unexpected to the ones, who thought the new technology can eliminate the disadvantage of smaller numbers)

 

[Czcibor]

Well, your original question was what can a resistance group do to counter a robot army. A serious flaw in their weaponry is a little too easy and obvious in my opinion.

Idea: what about standard problem of generals being prepared to win the previous war? I mean clearly good equipment, but:
-prepared for a different war (no navy? So prepare for submarine warfare...)
-cool experimental weapon - which is expensive, but needs a few more years of testing
-robots were optimized for low gravity and extreme temperatures of Mercury, tend to drown in swamp warfare
-logistics nightmare connected with overconfidence that lead to not taking enough supplies and one of supplies won the contract thanks to a bribe

Biological alien tech edge - what about rubber eating bacteria? ;)

 

[GTOM]

Rubber eating bacteria, good idea :), although i don't really like it, because it is close to employing a biological weapon against humans.
They will also produce fanatical clone armies, in SW like style. :D
I wonder whether swimming creatures could seriously damage metal with some kind of acid? (While i said, i see serious problems with regular ships, but airships can also land on water, and i have nothing against subs.
Maybe the ones against the robots could even launch at least one sneak commando attack against a base on a pacific island, after an EMP bombardment crippled security. The personnel of the robot base don't expect to be attacked by anything else than missiles.)

"to not taking enough supplies and one of supplies won the contract thanks to a bribe"

De you mean, a tampered supply?

Yes, theese problems are all valid, and could turn the outcome of the war. :)

 

[Czcibor]

They will also produce fanatical clone armies, in SW like style. :D

Good guys with cloned armies of cannon fodder? That would be original :D

I wonder whether swimming creatures could seriously damage metal with some kind of acid? (While i said, i see serious problems with regular ships, but airships can also land on water, and i have nothing against subs.

Too complicated. I'd just teach cute critters how to attach a 1kg shaped charge below water surface, set timer and swim away.

De you mean, a tampered supply?

No, I think in line of one bad guy cheating another bad guy.

Yes, theese problems are all valid, and could turn the outcome of the war. :)

Stalin's purge almost cost him WW2. Repeating that would not be original. Making a big budgets cuts (it looks good on financial statement :D ) on experienced officers, and replacing them with AI which were promised to be as good but in less that 10% of the original cost, looks like a way of repeating that but in a corporate style. ;)

 

[Khatti]

Stalin's purge almost cost him WW2. Repeating that would not be original.

Except Stalin wasn't the first guy in power to have problems with paranoia. Certainly he isn't the first Russian leader to have problems with paranoia (Ivan the Terrible). Then there is Robespierre. You could almost consider this sort of paranoia an occupational hazard.

 

[Drakkith]

It may help if we knew some details of your world. For example, why is there a robot invasion of Earth? What are they after? What are their goals? If it's something like annihilating all humans, then any land invasion is silly. Just bombard them from orbit and your pretty much done, unless they need the infrastructure intact for some reason. Without any details of what your story's world is like it's hard to give any suggestions.

Maybe the ones against the robots could even launch at least one sneak commando attack against a base on a pacific island, after an EMP bombardment crippled security. The personnel of the robot base don't expect to be attacked by anything else than missiles.)

Hmm, do you think you're to the point in developing your story that you need to worry about specific events like individual battles and raids? Do you have your main characters and overall plot together yet? You say your story is about finding alien tech. That's a pretty general statement that could mean just about anything. How does this affect your main characters and their struggles? And by struggles I don't mean this war in general, I mean their personal struggles. What are their immediate goals and why?

Also, may I ask if you've ever written any stories before?

 

[GTOM]

No, robots arent meant to annihilate humans.
Well i don't really want to publish the whole storyline, at first there is a war in the asteroid belt, Earth and Mars living in peace.
Then a science team find the alien stuff (you can imagine it like midi-chlorians, but hacking instead of telekinesis, also a big knowledge base), and that speeds up things.
Mercury wants to have all resources of Earth to win the war, it convinces the corrupt leaders of two nations, that with the new technology, and their economical power, they could take over Earth, and rule empires, otherwise there power will fail, and either they will be sentenced for corruption and serving the interests of Mercury instead of their own people (including hand over people to Mercury for torture - for example the girlfriend of the leader of the mentioned science team), or probably lynched if there will be a revolution. (Lots of people on Earth living in poverty.)
So the commanders of the robotic armies don't want to kill civilans, their labor is needed, infrastructure is needed.

There will be various types of characters in my story, from assassin and pirates to scientists and admiral, but no one likes the idea of a totalitarian empire ruling the Solar System with robotic armies.
Well, i have only told RP stories, currently I practice writing with short stories.

 

[Drakkith]

Then a science team find the alien stuff (you can imagine it like midi-chlorians, but hacking instead of telekinesis, also a big knowledge base), and that speeds up things.

I don't know what this means really. Midi-chlorians (from star wars?) and hacking are so unrelated that I have no idea what you're trying to do.

So the commanders of the robotic armies don't want to kill civilans, their labor is needed, infrastructure is needed.

So who's opposing them? Do other nations not have robotic armies as well?

 

[GTOM]

I don't know what this means really. Midi-chlorians (from star wars?) and hacking are so unrelated that I have no idea what you're trying to do.
So who's opposing them? Do other nations not have robotic armies as well?

First : They arent midi-chlorians, it was just an analogy. So they are alien nanobots designed to living in symbiosis inside the body (I see no reason why aliens weren't DNA based) enable to control machines directly with the brain, and some pseudo telepathy. Of course it will be challenging to adapt to human brain and body, but they can solve it, well that isn't the most hard part (although if human cells could really boost mice brain, then maybe not just pure magic http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v495/n7440/full/495145a.html)

Every nation and corporation use drones more or less, but only one corporation and its vassals trust robots so much, to replace more traditional armies with them.
Other corporations arent so advanced in robotics, and fear hacking (majority of corporate leaders arent the most patriotic types, they could give away access codes for example), they use human marines and crew, other nations weren't really prepared for war, they don't have the infrastructure for mass producing intelligent robot fighters, so resistance is rather based on humans, who don't want to give up their freedom.

 

[Khatti]

Every nation and corporation use drones more or less, but only one corporation and its vassals trust robots so much, to replace more traditional armies with them.

You know I often wonder if the amount of evil we consider corporations to be capable of is really probable. Corporations are single interest entities; they want to sell you whatever kind of widget they make. I don't know that a corporation is really up to handling the responsibilities of a government. If the government becomes so feckless that corporations have to take over the government's responsibilities those corporations now have a massive headache they were never intended to handle. I'm picking these thoughts off the tree while their still a little green. I'll give this all some more thought and get back to you.

 

[Drakkith]

First : They arent midi-chlorians, it was just an analogy.

Yes, I realize it was an analogy. I just didn't really understand what you were doing with it until you explained it.

So they are alien nanobots designed to living in symbiosis inside the body (I see no reason why aliens weren't DNA based) enable to control machines directly with the brain, and some pseudo telepathy.

Okay. Is this literally like telepathy, or is there some sort of requirement that needs to be met prior to hacking/controlling a machine, like physical contact, plugging a cable into your head and the machine, etc?

 

[GTOM]

If the government becomes so feckless that corporations have to take over the government's responsibilities those corporations now have a massive headache they were never intended to handle.

They don't govern Earth, but let their pawns do that.
Generally they don't care about issues like welfare of the people (in the asteroid belt, where they are the rulers, although eventually they start to learn that they can't neglect this thing neither)
The leader of the main robot manufacturer on Mercury basically born in the wrong age... queens and princesses arent on the good side in my story.

Okay. Is this literally like telepathy, or is there some sort of requirement that needs to be met prior to hacking/controlling a machine, like physical contact, plugging a cable into your head and the machine, etc?

The later is human technology (although i replaced implanted chips and jacks with electrode helmets). The alien technology can do it remotely, i don't really know how, with some sort of electromagnetic radiation, particles, quantum tunneling, tachions whatever... but it still requires proximity.

 

[GTOM]

Back to WWII analogies, i read that Hitler hoped the new Tiger tanks could win the Kursk battle, but they were still in experimental stage, had lots of technical problems, many failures... that can be general when introducing new kind of technology.
Before D-Day, more than once, the germans didnt really guarded valuables, so partisans or commandos could damage them.

I wonder what kind of strategic and other errors are believable? For example, i thought about how a commando could get in a base carved in rock? I read that NORAD has double blast doors, but what if a smaller base has only a single blast door?
They open it to release vehicles... that is the point, where the vehicles get blasted, the hidden commando charges in, while the wrecks prevent the door closing.

 

[Bystander]

So they are alien nanobots designed to living in symbiosis inside the body (I see no reason why aliens weren't DNA based) enable to control machines directly with the brain, and some pseudo telepathy. Of course it will be challenging to adapt to human brain and body, but they can solve it,

Jack Chalker did this in the fifth Well of Souls with the "Dreel."

 

[GTOM]

Ok, i check the storyline, i hope it won't be so similar.

 

[Drakkith]

I wonder what kind of strategic and other errors are believable? For example, i thought about how a commando could get in a base carved in rock? I read that NORAD has double blast doors, but what if a smaller base has only a single blast door?
They open it to release vehicles... that is the point, where the vehicles get blasted, the hidden commando charges in, while the wrecks prevent the door closing.

Okay. But why isn't he killed by the guards before he can get to the doors? Or right after he gets in the doors? Any well-secured base is going to have security both inside and outside, with plenty more ready to call up at a moments notice. (Unless you make the enemy comically inept)

Ok, i check the storyline, i hope it won't be so similar.

Don't even worry about it being similar. If you are writing a completely different story set in a completely different universe no one will care in the slightest that the ideas are similar. No one cares about the hundreds of different portrayals of telepathy, FTL, magic, etc. As long as it fits the story then it's just fine.

 

[GTOM]

I thought, that is a robot maintenance base, humans are barely able to shoot, and most robots are under maintenance, and they were only prepared for aerial bombardment, not for a stealth commando attack.
Of course i don't intend to make the enemy comic, although since they trust robots too much, some level of incompetence is accepted.

So you think that level of unpreparedness is too much, i rethink that part.

 

[Drakkith]

I thought, that is a robot maintenance base, humans are barely able to shoot, and most robots are under maintenance, and they were only prepared for aerial bombardment, not for a stealth commando attack.

Okay. So what's the significance of this place? Obviously it isn't that high of value to the enemy if a small numbers of commandos are able to successfully attack it. The amount of protection scales directly with the importance of the target. A high-value target will be heavily defended, no matter how far from the front lines it is.

Also, why is a maintenance facility located inside a mountain? It is extraordinarily expensive and difficult to build a facility inside a mountain. Plus, a maintenance facility typically needs lot of parts, tools, and other supplies. A modern military base usually requires the local infrastructure to support itself, and it is an immense undertaking to supply a remote location with supplies, especially in the middle of a war where you can't always rely on commercial transportation like you can during peace. A single entrance that's locked with a blast door just doesn't work well for a maintenance facility.

Of course i don't intend to make the enemy comic, although since they trust robots too much, some level of incompetence is accepted.

Why? What is it about trusting robots that makes them incompetent? In what way are they incompetent? Tactically? Strategically? Logistically? Other ways? Don't be afraid to get specific.

So you think that level of unpreparedness is too much, i rethink that part.

I think that you need to learn more about how a modern military works and then apply what you need for your story. For example, high-security compounds typically have multiple checkpoints, guarded gates, patrols, and other defenses well before you ever get to the main facility itself, so it isn't just a matter of blowing open a door and rushing in. Simply saying, "they weren't prepared for an attack" is ludicrous if you want to portray them as a tangible threat.

By the way, I hope you're taking all this as constructive criticism. These kinds of questions are exactly what you need to answer in order to make a believable story. You don't need to necessarily change anything, but it would help immensely if you came up with good reasons for these things to be the way they are.

 

[Drakkith]

I also wanted to touch on what you said in another thread:

In my story, the villain can be a lesser evil, because while Earth is infested heavily by corruption, poverty and sin, her realm offers good education, college for everyone, ability to raise the allowed number of kids properly, total surveillance also creates very low rate of crime, good health care (if the one can be a good worker again, or was a stahanovist) and also mass feasts to color people's lives.

This is just not believable at all. Corruption, poverty, and sin are typically mutually exclusive with things like good education, low crime rate, good health, feasts, etc.

 

[GTOM]

Sorry for my poor English, i left out something.

While Earth is infested heavily by corruption, poverty and sin, on the contrary her realm (Mercury) offers good education etc...

"Also, why is a maintenance facility located inside a mountain?" For protection vs aerial bombardment i thought.

"Why? What is it about trusting robots that makes them incompetent? In what way are they incompetent? Tactically? Strategically? Logistically? Other ways? Don't be afraid to get specific."

After long last peace they became too convenient, when the war brakes out, they are overconfident, that superior number of robots, missiles, factories are enough, and don't care enough about details and hardships. So I think tactically mostly.
(After a time there can be logistic problems also as they can import less and less ore from the asteroid mines.)

Well i welcome constructive critics, I also don't like too stupid enemies or the trope Imperial Stormtrooper marksmanship.
On the other hand, i read that in WWII a commando was even able to damage a facility where the germans had nuclear research.
IMHO as the war progresses, eventually there will be places that has importance, but not so well guarded.

 

[Drakkith]

"Also, why is a maintenance facility located inside a mountain?" For protection vs aerial bombardment i thought.

It seems far more likely, to me, that they'd just build more air defenses instead. Carving out a mountain is much more expensive and time consuming. Of course, there's no reason they couldn't have taken an old military complex that already existed... the Cheyenne Mountain Complex is nearly closed down at the moment, with only a standby crew at work. It's completely plausible that the robots either took over an empty complex or just rolled over the skeleton crew that may have been there.

After long last peace they became too convenient, when the war brakes out, they are overconfident, that superior number of robots, missiles, factories are enough, and don't care enough about details and hardships. So I think tactically mostly.
(After a time there can be logistic problems also as they can import less and less ore from the asteroid mines.)

Something like a reverse Hitler then? Hitler underestimated the under-equipped, under-trained, and under-led Soviet militay and was trapped in a war of attrition that he couldn't afford (but the Soviet's could. Barely). I could see strategic-level mistakes, such as poor target selection or attacking too many places at once, leading to a sort of "stalemate", especially if their enemy can trap a large portion of their military in a fight they can't afford to lose and can't afford to back out of.

Well i welcome constructive critics, I also don't like too stupid enemies or the trope Imperial Stormtrooper marksmanship.
On the other hand, i read that in WWII a commando was even able to damage a facility where the germans had nuclear research.
IMHO as the war progresses, eventually there will be places that has importance, but not so well guarded.

Sure. But I don't remember the German nuclear weapons program as being a high priority for the German command, hence why it was extremely under-funded. And my statement about commandos was only meant to apply to some sort of direct frontal attack on a well-guarded facility or the main gates of an installation. Real world commando units probably don't do frontal assaults.

One thing I found interesting about the Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship trope was that it is actually pretty realistic. The issue is that the heroes generally have Improbable Aiming Skills. (But like they say on the tvtropes page, tropes are not bad. It's all about how you use them)

 

[GTOM]

It seems far more likely, to me, that they'd just build more air defenses instead. Carving out a mountain is much more expensive and time consuming. Of course, there's no reason they couldn't have taken an old military complex that already existed... the Cheyenne Mountain Complex is nearly closed down at the moment, with only a standby crew at work. It's completely plausible that the robots either took over an empty complex or just rolled over the skeleton crew that may have been there.

I though about a Pacific island, with some old Japanese base (i read that Americans blew the entrances of one), or mine or something like that.
There will be though aerial defence for sure, but rock is also a protection.

Something like a reverse Hitler then? Hitler underestimated the under-equipped, under-trained, and under-led Soviet militay and was trapped in a war of attrition that he couldn't afford (but the Soviet's could. Barely). I could see strategic-level mistakes, such as poor target selection or attacking too many places at once, leading to a sort of "stalemate", especially if their enemy can trap a large portion of their military in a fight they can't afford to lose and can't afford to back out of.

Yes theese things can also play.
Also a bit overestimate the alienware breakthrough in robotics and underestimate alienware breakthroughs of others (fanatical clone army, super healing, superstrong magnets that allow better coilgun construction and counter desintegrators by shattering plasma beams. I think the desintegrator was rather a cutting tool than a weapon, and analyze the alien knowledge base is a though stuff, the four people became nanobot users understand different parts really well - magnetism, hacking, persuasion, biology, plasma applications etc.)

Well,

Do you still edit the last part?

 

[Drakkith]

Do you still edit the last part?

I edited it. I went to get a hair off my laptop's screen (which is also a touchscreen) and accidentally clicked post before I was done typing.

 

[GTOM]

Sure. But I don't remember the German nuclear weapons program as being a high priority for the German command, hence why it was extremely under-funded. And my statement about commandos was only meant to apply to some sort of direct frontal attack on a well-guarded facility or the main gates of an installation. Real world commando units probably don't do frontal assaults.

One thing I found interesting about the Imperial Stormtrooper Marksmanship trope was that it is actually pretty realistic. The issue is that the heroes generally have Improbable Aiming Skills. (But like they say on the tvtropes page, tropes are not bad. It's all about how you use them)

Leave open some back door would be definitally too stupid IMHO.
Otherwise i think a corridor fight is different from firing to someone 100m away concealed with bushes.

 

[GTOM]

Now i decided to move the scene, that it should happen on Mars, the robots come to take out the mega laser batteries and anti-satellite missile silos that protect the cities (mostly the south pole capital) and capture the cities (ruin them with bombardment would be a war crime)
The defenders also have automated defence batteries, recon drones, but i don't want to leave out human soldiers. Well oxygen supply and treat the wounds is challenging in the martian environment...

What kind of challenges robots could face in sandstorms? (they tested for both 1/3 and 1g but for sterile environments)
Could it make sense in the thin atmosphere to launch projectiles that open large nets against tiny recon drones? (similar to the tool we use to hit flies)
Does it have some plausibility level to gene-engineer microbes, that survive in martian environment, attracted the heat and radiation of the machines, and generate some corrosive acid?

 

[Khatti]

Does it have some plausibility level to gene-engineer microbes, that survive in martian environment, attracted the heat and radiation of the machines, and generate some corrosive acid?

Well...how long would the microbes have to survive in the wild? What do they eat when enemy robots don't present themselves for Thanksgiving. Do they lie dormant on or in the soil like anthrax. Can they come back and bite you in the butt? Other things to think about is who would this occur to? If I wanted to fight robots in this way I would use nano-bots, not microbes. Breeding a microbe like this would require a lot of expertise. It would be done by a community who do this sort of thing all the time. Those killer robots out there would be a nail, and the people looking at them would have to be so used to using this form of technology that it would occur to them that this is the hammer.

 

[Czcibor]

Now i decided to move the scene, that it should happen on Mars, the robots come to take out the mega laser batteries and anti-satellite missile silos that protect the cities (mostly the south pole capital) and capture the cities (ruin them with bombardment would be a war crime)
The defenders also have automated defence batteries, recon drones, but i don't want to leave out human soldiers. Well oxygen supply and treat the wounds is challenging in the martian environment...

What kind of challenges robots could face in sandstorms? (they tested for both 1/3 and 1g but for sterile environments)
Could it make sense in the thin atmosphere to launch projectiles that open large nets against tiny recon drones? (similar to the tool we use to hit flies)
Does it have some plausibility level to gene-engineer microbes, that survive in martian environment, attracted the heat and radiation of the machines, and generate some corrosive acid?

Sand storm? I've got an idea for you. If you use radio waves - you betray your position. You are also susceptible to jamming. So some engineer (or even better a manager) may have brilliantly decided to use laser communication instead. Detection proof. Jamming proof.

Sand storm? O sh***!Thin atmosphere without oxygen is an awful place for any flying drones.

However, think about conventional artillery or railguns...(tiny friction and lower gravity...)

 

[GTOM]

Thanks.

Microbes don't have to survive for long, since the intended use is to spray them onto robots with a bomb. I think the line between nanobots and microbes is rather blurred in that case.

Flyers should rely on rocket engines instead of rotors.
Yes, i have also thought about the combo of sandstorm interferes with optics and developed emp weapons can be pretty bad, human marines can get close to enemy tanks. The defenders had to develop really advanced sensor technology to effectively use the laser dome even during sandstorm (well that also effect kinetic bomb accuracy)