Understanding derivation of -du/dx = F

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between potential energy (U) and force (F), specifically the derivation of the equation F = -du/dx. Participants are exploring the calculus involved in understanding changes in potential energy and how they relate to force.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification, Mathematical reasoning, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants are questioning the notation and the relationship between ΔU and du, with some expressing confusion about the implications of taking derivatives of these quantities. There is also discussion about whether ΔU represents a real change or an infinitesimal one.

Discussion Status

Some participants have offered hints and clarifications regarding the notation and the calculus involved. There is an acknowledgment of misunderstandings, particularly around the interpretation of ΔU and its derivative. The conversation is ongoing, with participants actively engaging with each other's questions and clarifications.

Contextual Notes

There is a noted confusion regarding the notation used for potential energy and its derivative, as well as the implications of taking derivatives of changes in potential energy over a range versus at a point. Participants are also considering the role of gravity in the context of potential energy changes.

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Homework Statement



Where U is potential energy, show that F = -du/dx

Homework Equations



ΔU = U(x) - U(x_0)

$$ΔU = U(x) - U(x_0) = \int_{x_0}^{x}Fdx \qquad (1)$$

The Attempt at a Solution


[/B]
I am confused why
$$\frac{d}{dx}ΔU = \frac{du}{dx} \qquad (2)$$

Doesn't
$$ΔU = du \qquad (3)$$

I recognize that (3) is simple misunderstanding of calculus but for some reason I can't make sense of why it isn't true in this case.
 
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hsbhsb said:
I am confused why
$$\frac{d}{dx}ΔU = \frac{du}{dx}$$
I'm a little confused with the notation. Is ##u## the same as ##U##?

Note that ##\frac{d}{dx}ΔU = \frac{d}{dx} \left[U(x) - U(x_0) \right]##.

Simplify this.
Hint: What is ##\frac{d}{dx} U(x_0)##?

Doesn't
$$ΔU = du $$

I recognize that (3) is simple misunderstanding of calculus but for some reason I can't make sense of why it isn't true in this case.
Why do you think it is true in this case?
 
TSny said:
Is ##u## the same as ##U##?
Yes it is meant to, my mistake for lack of clarity. From now on I will use ##dU## instead of ##du## to represent the derivative of ##U##
TSny said:
Hint: What is ##\frac{d}{dx}U(x_0)##
Does it ##=F+dU/dx##?

TSny said:
Why do you think it is true in this case?
Ok, I can see why ##ΔU \neq dU## in this case. After all, ##ΔU## represents a real change in potential, not an infinitesimally small one. But I am still having trouble understanding this algebraically and intuitively. How can you take the derivative of ##ΔU##? In a situation where all potential energy is provided by gravity, ##ΔU## does not represent a single point where gravity has a single instantaneous force, like ##U(x)## and ##U(x_0)## do. It is rather, a range. Does taking the derivative of ##ΔU## then yield an average force over that range?I think my grasp of Leibniz notation is poor.
 
You have the relation $$ΔU = U(x) - U(x_0) = \int_{x_0}^{x}Fdx $$ I believe there should be a negative sign in this relation, so that it should read $$ΔU = U(x) - U(x_0) = - \int_{x_0}^{x}Fdx $$ Think of ##x_0## as having a fixed value; but consider ##x## to be a variable. So, ##U(x_0)## is just some number (i.e., a constant), but ##U(x)## is a function of the variable ##x##.

Use rules of calculus to simplify ##\frac{d}{dx}ΔU = \frac{d}{dx}\left[ U(x) - U(x_0) \right] = -\frac{d}{dx}\int_{x_0}^{x}Fdx##
 
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I get it! Thank you :)
 

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