Understanding Tensors: Is Misner Thorne and Wheeler Enough?

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The discussion centers on whether the textbook "Misner, Thorne, and Wheeler" (MTW) is sufficient for understanding tensors necessary for general relativity (GR). Participants express that MTW may not be the best starting point due to its complexity, suggesting alternatives like Sean Carroll's online lecture notes for a gentler introduction. There is a focus on the importance of understanding tensor notation, particularly the distinction between upper and lower indices, and how they relate to matrix representations. The conversation also touches on the nature of Lorentz transformations and their classification as tensors, highlighting the nuances in terminology and definitions. Overall, clarity in tensor notation and foundational understanding is emphasized as crucial for mastering the subject.
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Summary:: Does the textbook Misner Thorne and Wheeler have all I need to understand tensors in order to learn GR?

Does the textbook Misner Thorne and Wheeler have all I need to understand tensors in order to learn GR? I have that textbook but never went through it. Tensors greatly intimidate me with all the indexes and symbols and summing this way and that and all the terminology. Is there a better source? Thanks.

P.S. I always liked that the book MTW is it's own pun...
 
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bob012345 said:
Does the textbook Misner Thorne and Wheeler have all I need to understand tensors in order to learn GR?
Yes. However:

bob012345 said:
Tensors greatly intimidate me with all the indexes and symbols and summing this way and that and all the terminology.
As you seem to realize, MTW is probably not the source you want to learn tensor calculus from if you want to avoid this problem. :wink:

I would suggest Sean Carroll's online lecture notes on GR as a gentler introduction to the subject.
 
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PeterDonis said:
Yes. However:As you seem to realize, MTW is probably not the source you want to learn tensor calculus from if you want to avoid this problem. :wink:

I would suggest Sean Carroll's online lecture notes on GR as a gentler introduction to the subject.
Ok, thanks.
 
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bob012345 said:
Summary:: Does the textbook Misner Thorne and Wheeler have all I need to understand tensors in order to learn GR?

Tensors greatly intimidate me with all the indexes and symbols and summing this way and that and all the terminology.
Do not break the first commandment https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/the-10-commandments-of-index-expressions-and-tensor-calculus/ ;)

Do not despair. It does look daunting in the beginning but once you get the hang of it there are mainly a few basic things to keep in mind.
 
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The greatest obstacle for me is to obey Commandment 2 ;-)). Another important commandment is to also obey carefully the horizontal order of indices not only the vertical one! I've seen many documents providing in principle a good approach to the topic but are completely useless in not clearly writing the indices in a well-defined horizontal ordering, where it is needed.
 
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vanhees71 said:
The greatest obstacle for me is to obey Commandment 2 ;-))
Yet it has been the bane of many a student calculations :oldeyes:
 
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vanhees71 said:
The greatest obstacle for me is to obey Commandment 2 ;-)). Another important commandment is to also obey carefully the horizontal order of indices not only the vertical one! I've seen many documents providing in principle a good approach to the topic but are completely useless in not clearly writing the indices in a well-defined horizontal ordering, where it is needed.
Especially when one needs to be careful about both at the same time. For instance, the Lorentz-transformation tensor obeys ##(\Lambda^{-1})^{\alpha}_{\;\,\beta}=\Lambda^{\;\,\alpha}_{\beta}##.
 
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Demystifier said:
Especially when one needs to be careful about both at the same time. For instance, the Lorentz-transformation tensor obeys ##(\Lambda^{-1})^{\alpha}_{\;\,\beta}=\Lambda^{\;\,\alpha}_{\beta}##.
Can you recommend a textbook that covers this clearly and explains what the α and β refer to in terms of rows and columns on either side of the equation. I have always found this confusing
 
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dyn said:
Can you recommend a textbook that covers this clearly and explains what the α and β refer to in terms of rows and columns on either side of the equation. I have always found this confusing
I don't know a textbook, but it's easy. Lorentz group is an orthogonal group SO(1,3). Orthogonal matrix, by definition, obeys ##\Lambda^{-1}=\Lambda^T##, where ##T## denotes the transpose. The rest should be easy.
 
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  • #10
Demystifier said:
I don't know a textbook, but it's easy. Lorentz group is an orthogonal group SO(1,3). Orthogonal matrix, by definition, obeys ##\Lambda^{-1}=\Lambda^T##, where ##T## denotes the transpose. The rest should be easy.
This is true for SO(n). It is not true for SO(1,n). In particular, for the standard Lorentz boost in the x-direction, it is not true as ##\Lambda = \Lambda^T##.
 
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  • #11
Demystifier said:
I don't know a textbook, but it's easy. Lorentz group is an orthogonal group SO(1,3). Orthogonal matrix, by definition, obeys ##\Lambda^{-1}=\Lambda^T##, where ##T## denotes the transpose. The rest should be easy.
It's not that easy! You have ##(\eta^{\mu \nu})=\mathrm{diag}(1,-1,-1,-1)## (I'm in the west-coast camp, but there's no big difference when using the east-coast convention). An ##\mathbb{R}^{4 \times 4}##-matrix is called a Lorentz-transformation matrix if,
$${\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho} {\Lambda^{\nu}}_{\sigma} \eta_{\mu \nu}=\eta_{\mu \nu}.$$
In matrix notation (note that here the index positioning gets lost, so you have to keep in mind that the matrix ##\hat{\Lambda}## has a first upper and a second lower index while the matrix ##\hat{\eta}## as two lower indices) this reads
$$\hat{\Lambda}^{\text{T}} \hat{\eta} \hat{\Lambda}=\hat{\eta}.$$
Since ##\hat{\eta}^2=\hat{1}## we have
$$\hat{\eta} \hat{\Lambda}^{\text{T}} \hat{\eta}=\hat{\Lambda}^{-1}.$$
In index notation that reads restoring the correct index placement (note that also ##\hat{\eta}^{-1}=(\eta^{\mu \nu})=\hat{\eta}=(\eta_{\mu \nu})##)
$${(\hat{\Lambda}^{-1})^{\mu}}_{\nu} = \eta_{\nu \sigma} {\Lambda^{\sigma}}_{\rho} \eta^{\rho \mu}={\Lambda_{\nu}}^{\mu}.$$
 
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  • #13
My confusion is over the following -
If Λμν represents the entry in the Λ matrix in row μ and column ν what does Λνμ represent in terms of rows and columns ?
In other words in Λμν the row is indicated by μ ; but is that because it is the top index or the 1st index going from left to right ?
 
  • #14
dyn said:
In other words in Λμν the row is indicated by μ ; but is that because it is the top index or the 1st index going from left to right ?
It is because it's first from the left. In terms of a matrix, the difference between upper and lower indices doesn't make sense. For example, for the metric tensor ##g## with matrix entries ##g_{\mu\nu}##, the quantities called ##g^{\mu\nu}## are really the matrix entries of ##g^{-1}##. So in matrix language, ##g_{\mu\nu}## and ##g^{\mu\nu}## are entries of different matrices, one being the inverse of another.
 
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  • #15
The difference between upper and lower indices makes a lot of sense. It's a mnemonic notation for knowing whether the corresponding tensor components have to be transformed covariantly (lower indices) or contravariantly.

The drawback of the matrix notation is that this information gets hidden, i.e., you have to always keep in mind which of the indices in the matrix is an upper or lower index. Another drawback is that you can't handle tensors with rank 3 and higher. The advantage is a somewhat shorter notation.
 
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  • #16
Demystifier said:
It is because it's first from the left. In terms of a matrix, the difference between upper and lower indices doesn't make sense. For example, for the metric tensor ##g## with matrix entries ##g_{\mu\nu}##, the quantities called ##g^{\mu\nu}## are really the matrix entries of ##g^{-1}##. So in matrix language, ##g_{\mu\nu}## and ##g^{\mu\nu}## are entries of different matrices, one being the inverse of another.
It should be pointed out that this is true particularly for the metric tensor. It is not generally true that ##T^{\mu\nu}## are the components of the inverse of ##T_{\mu\nu}##. However, for the metric tensor, it holds that
$$
g^{\mu\nu}g_{\nu\sigma} v^\sigma = g^{\mu\nu} v_\nu = v^\mu
$$
for all ##v## and so ##g^{\mu\nu}g_{\nu\sigma} = \delta^\mu_\sigma##.
 
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  • #17
dyn said:
If Λμν represents the entry in the Λ matrix in row μ and column ν what does Λνμ represent in terms of rows and columns ?
In other words in Λμν the row is indicated by μ ; but is that because it is the top index or the 1st index going from left to right ?
If Λ is a 4x4 matrix and Λμν represents the entry in row μ and column ν what does Λvu represent ?

I am looking for a textbook that explains in the clearest sense this kind of tensor/index notation and what it means
 
  • #18
I have a copy of MTW and it is not at all my favorite one to use for independent studying of something like tensor calculus from scratch.
 
  • #19
dyn said:
If Λ is a 4x4 matrix and Λμν represents the entry in row μ and column ν what does Λvu represent ?
The entry in row ##\nu## and column ##\mu##.

However, ##\Lambda## is not a tensor, it's a coordinate transformation represented as a matrix. They're not the same thing.

dyn said:
I am looking for a textbook that explains in the clearest sense this kind of tensor/index notation and what it means
First you need to understand the distinction between tensors and coordinate transformations. You have been talking about ##\Lambda##, meaning the Lorentz transformation, as though it were a tensor; but as noted above, it isn't.
 
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  • #20
Demystifier said:
the Lorentz-transformation tensor
A coordinate transformation isn't a tensor. They're different kinds of objects, even though similar notation is used for both.
 
  • #21
PeterDonis said:
A coordinate transformation isn't a tensor.
Lorentz transformation is a Lorentz tensor. Under Lorentz coordinate transformations, components of ##\Lambda^{\mu}_{\;\nu}## transform as components of a tensor. But of course, it's not a tensor under general coordinate transformations.
 
  • #22
PeterDonis said:
A coordinate transformation isn't a tensor. They're different kinds of objects, even though similar notation is used for both.
I was about to write something similar, but this depends on whether you consider an active or passive Lorentz transformation. For a passive transformation, the coordinate transformation certainly is not a tensor as it is just a relabelling of components. However, for an active transformation, a Lorentz transformation is indeed a linear map from vectors in Minkowski space to vectors in Minkowski space - which is the very definition of a (1,1) tensor. However ...

Demystifier said:
Lorentz transformation is a Lorentz tensor. Under Lorentz coordinate transformations, components of ##\Lambda^{\mu}_{\;\nu}## transform as components of a tensor. But of course, it's not a tensor under general coordinate transformations.
... I generally dislike the very common introduction of tensors as being "components transforming in a particular way" as I have seen it lead to several misunderstandings. In the case of a passive Lorentz transformation (which is what people will generally think about), it certainly does not satisfy the requirements for being a tensor in the sense of being a map from tangent vectors to tangent vectors as it is just a relabelling of the coordinates used to describe the vector.
 
  • #23
Then can we at least agree that there are several inequvalent definitions of a "tensor"?
 
  • #24
Demystifier said:
Then can we at least agree that there are several inequvalent definitions of a "tensor"?
In mathematics, there is only one definition as a multilinear map. There is no such thing as "inequivalent definitions", this would mean different notions.
 
  • #25
dyn said:
If Λ is a 4x4 matrix and Λμν represents the entry in row μ and column ν what does Λvu represent ?

I am looking for a textbook that explains in the clearest sense this kind of tensor/index notation and what it means
The horizontal position of the indices always tells you what's counted: the left index counts the row, the right index the column. In the matrix notation the vertical positioning of the indices is simply lost. You always have to remember what a given matrix represents, including the vertical positioning of the indices. For this reason I tend to avoid the matrix notation when it comes to relativity when doing calculations.
 
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  • #26
It seems hopeless as highly educated intelligent people can't even agree on the math. Maybe GR is best left to professional mathematicians.
 
  • #27
bob012345 said:
highly educated intelligent people can't even agree on the math
I don't think there's any disagreement on the math. The disagreement in this thread has been over terminology--whether, for example, the Lorentz transformation can be properly described as a "tensor". Nobody is disagreeing on how to use the Lorentz transformation mathematically, or any other mathematical object.
 
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  • #28
bob012345 said:
Maybe GR is best left to professional mathematicians.
You might want to reconsider that since very few prominent specialists in GR have been professional mathematicians. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Roger Penrose.
 
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  • #29
PeterDonis said:
You might want to reconsider that since very few prominent specialists in GR have been professional mathematicians.
Maybe that’s why the Earth is still blocking your view of Venus … :-p
 
  • #30
caz said:
Maybe that’s why the Earth is still blocking your view of Venus … :-p
Yes, since de-modulation isn't working, perhaps I need to consider finding a black hole somewhere and using that to swallow the Earth...
 
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  • #31
PeterDonis said:
I don't think there's any disagreement on the math. The disagreement in this thread has been over terminology--whether, for example, the Lorentz transformation can be properly described as a "tensor". Nobody is disagreeing on how to use the Lorentz transformation mathematically, or any other mathematical object.
Well, maybe it's just an apparent disagreement then because I am so unfamiliar with it I can't even make the distinction yet. I'm starting with Sean Carroll's notes BTW and he even has an abridged version which is still not so clear. I'm really more interested in understanding the physics than the mathematics of GR.
 
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  • #32
bob012345 said:
I'm really more interested in understanding the physics than the mathematics of GR.
Then you probably don't want to focus on the nuts and bolts of tensors, coordinate transformations, etc, since those are more for detailed calculations than for conceptual understanding.

Edwin Taylor's Exploring Black Holes might be helpful; it only treats a particular class of spacetimes (basically the ones we use to model things like the solar system and black holes), but it brings the math down to the level of ordinary algebra and calculus (by making use of well chosen coordinates and the symmetries of this class of spacetimes), and seems to me to focus more on physical understanding than on brute force calculation. It is available online here:

https://www.eftaylor.com/general.html
 
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  • #33
PeterDonis said:
Then you probably don't want to focus on the nuts and bolts of tensors, coordinate transformations, etc, since those are more for detailed calculations than for conceptual understanding.

Edwin Taylor's Exploring Black Holes might be helpful; it only treats a particular class of spacetimes (basically the ones we use to model things like the solar system and black holes), but it brings the math down to the level of ordinary algebra and calculus (by making use of well chosen coordinates and the symmetries of this class of spacetimes), and seems to me to focus more on physical understanding than on brute force calculation. It is available online here:

https://www.eftaylor.com/general.html
Thanks. I'm not totally giving up ever following the math by the way..
 
  • #34
vanhees71 said:
It's not that easy! You have ##(\eta^{\mu \nu})=\mathrm{diag}(1,-1,-1,-1)## (I'm in the west-coast camp, but there's no big difference when using the east-coast convention). An ##\mathbb{R}^{4 \times 4}##-matrix is called a Lorentz-transformation matrix if,
$${\Lambda^{\mu}}_{\rho} {\Lambda^{\nu}}_{\sigma} \eta_{\mu \nu}=\eta_{\mu \nu}.$$
In matrix notation (note that here the index positioning gets lost, so you have to keep in mind that the matrix ##\hat{\Lambda}## has a first upper and a second lower index while the matrix ##\hat{\eta}## as two lower indices) this reads
$$\hat{\Lambda}^{\text{T}} \hat{\eta} \hat{\Lambda}=\hat{\eta}.$$
Since ##\hat{\eta}^2=\hat{1}## we have
$$\hat{\eta} \hat{\Lambda}^{\text{T}} \hat{\eta}=\hat{\Lambda}^{-1}.$$
In index notation that reads restoring the correct index placement (note that also ##\hat{\eta}^{-1}=(\eta^{\mu \nu})=\hat{\eta}=(\eta_{\mu \nu})##)
$${(\hat{\Lambda}^{-1})^{\mu}}_{\nu} = \eta_{\nu \sigma} {\Lambda^{\sigma}}_{\rho} \eta^{\rho \mu}={\Lambda_{\nu}}^{\mu}.$$
Just wanted to clarify as this is still confusing to me. If you write in matrix vector notation, everything flows clearly, and if you write in index notation everything flows clearly too. The connection between the two is what's confusing. For example,

In matrix vector notation,

$$\eta = \Lambda^T \eta \Lambda \quad \rightarrow \quad 1 = \eta \Lambda^T \eta \Lambda \quad \rightarrow \quad \Lambda^{-1} = \eta \Lambda^T \eta \Lambda \Lambda^{-1} \quad \rightarrow \quad \Lambda^{-1} = \eta \Lambda^T \eta$$

In index notation,

$$\eta_{\rho\sigma} = (\Lambda^T)^{\mu\;}_{\;\rho} \Lambda^{\nu\;}_{\;\sigma} \eta_{\mu\nu} \quad \rightarrow \quad \delta^\alpha_\rho = (\Lambda^T)^{\mu\;}_{\;\rho} \Lambda^{\nu\;}_{\;\sigma} \eta_{\mu\nu} \eta^{\sigma\alpha} \quad \rightarrow \quad \delta^\alpha_\rho ((\Lambda^T)^{-1})^{\mu\;}_{\;\rho} = \Lambda^{\nu\;}_{\;\sigma} \eta_{\mu\nu} \eta^{\sigma\alpha} \quad \rightarrow \quad \delta^\alpha_\rho ((\Lambda^{-1})^T)^{\mu\;}_{\;\rho} = \Lambda^{\nu\;}_{\;\sigma} \eta_{\mu\nu} \eta^{\sigma\alpha} \quad \rightarrow \quad ((\Lambda^{-1})^T)^{\mu\;}_{\;\alpha} = \Lambda_{\mu\;}^{\;\alpha} \quad \rightarrow \quad (\Lambda^{-1})^{\alpha\;}_{\;\mu} = \Lambda_{\mu\;}^{\;\alpha}$$

The possible misconceptions here are,
1. Is it correct in index notation to write ##(\Lambda^T)^{\mu\;}_{\;\rho}## which is just the counterpart for the matrix vector notation? So that ##(\Lambda^T)^{\mu\;}_{\;\rho} = \Lambda^{\rho\;}_{\;\mu}##. This makes a lot of sense actually.
2. In the expression ##\;\delta^\alpha_\rho = (\Lambda^T)^{\mu\;}_{\;\rho} \Lambda^{\nu\;}_{\;\sigma} \eta_{\mu\nu} \eta^{\sigma\alpha}\;##, it is correct to just multiply both sides by the inverse of ##(\Lambda^T)^{\mu\;}_{\;\rho}## even there are indices present such that ##\; \delta^\alpha_\rho ((\Lambda^T)^{-1})^{\mu\;}_{\;\rho} = \Lambda^{\nu\;}_{\;\sigma} \eta_{\mu\nu} \eta^{\sigma\alpha} \;## right?
*For #1 I have not seen anybody write the transpose explicitly like I did above so I think we just follow the index placement obeying the transformation rules and make sure we have the corresponding matrix vector version in our head and just make sense of the resulting index version equation and say, "hey, we should transpose this matrix to have the correct row-column operation...". For #2 I believe even in index notations the symbol we use can also follow the matrix version as to not confuse the correspondence between the two versions right?
3. In @vanhees71 SR notes (Special Relativity by van Hees) in Appendix A.6, the steps are missing so maybe someone could fill in all the steps so as to lift this long-time confusion already. For example, in eq. A.6.3 it has a term ##\Lambda^{\mu\;}_{\;\rho}## which is the term when written in matrix vector notation, the term with the transpose ##\Lambda^T##, but then when he multiplied by the inverse both sides, the indices in the resulting equation in eq. A.6.4 just suddenly flipped (with consideration to ##\delta^\alpha_\rho##), i.e. ##(\Lambda^{-1})^{\alpha\;}_{\;\mu}##. However there are no step which indicated why that is so.

I hope these may be clarified.
 
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  • #35
I think that MTW is a wonderful book for learning General Relativity, if you have 20 years to spare.
 
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  • #36
PeterDonis said:
You might want to reconsider that since very few prominent specialists in GR have been professional mathematicians. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Roger Penrose.
And maybe Hermann Weyl. It's as usual: His math is brillant, also from a didactic point of view when referring to his very famous textbook "Raum, Zeit, Materie" ("Space, Time, Matter"). The mathematicians of his time, however seem to have thought not so positively about this book, because in Heisenberg's book "Der Teil und das Ganze" you can read about his experience with the famous mathematician Ferdinand Lindemann, whom he consulted concerning the choice of his subject of study at Munich university. When he told Lindemann that he has already read Weyl's book, Lindemann told him that he is already spoiled for a serious study of mathematics ;-)).

Weyl's physics is not that brilliant, because the idea to gauge scale invariance of the matter-free gravitational field and taking the corresponding gauge field as the electromagnetic field was immediately considered wrong by Einstein and also Pauli, because indeed the measures of rods doesn't depend on their "electromagnetic history". In any case this idea of "gauging of symmetries" was ingenious in its own write. Weyl simply gauged the wrong symmetry in this case, and the entire thing gave the name associated with this idea till today: "gauge theory", "gauging a symmetry", etc.
 
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  • #37
stevendaryl said:
I think that MTW is a wonderful book for learning General Relativity, if you have 20 years to spare.
Gee, it's been sitting on my bookshelf since 1988. I could have learned it by now!
 
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  • #38
vanhees71 said:
And maybe Hermann Weyl.
Yes, he's another example. I remember reading an English translation of "Space, Time, Matter" back when I was an undergraduate, and I couldn't make head or tail of it. Then, years later, after I had read through MTW and was more familiar with GR and tensors and so on, I suddenly realized what he was talking about.
 
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  • #39
PeterDonis said:
Yes, he's another example. I remember reading an English translation of "Space, Time, Matter" back when I was an undergraduate, and I couldn't make head or tail of it. Then, years later, after I had read through MTW and was more familiar with GR and tensors and so on, I suddenly realized what he was talking about.
Thanks for the reference. I found it on Project Gutenberg. It is astonishing that this book is over 100 years old. Still, I want it.https://www.gutenberg.org/files/43006/43006-pdf.pdf
 
  • #40
PeterDonis said:
Yes, he's another example. I remember reading an English translation of "Space, Time, Matter" back when I was an undergraduate, and I couldn't make head or tail of it. Then, years later, after I had read through MTW and was more familiar with GR and tensors and so on, I suddenly realized what he was talking about.
I read the book also early in my undergraduate studies, and I found it pretty intuitive, at least the parts where he talks about the mathematical foundations. I had only trouble to understand the physics part. This I learned then from Landau and Lifshitz vol 2 :-).
 
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  • #41
this is probably one of the worst textbooks I've ever seen
not even trying to be edgy, it's just a complete mess and I don't know how anybody has learned anything from it
 
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  • #42
ergospherical said:
this is probably one of the worst textbooks I've ever seen
not even trying to be edgy, it's just a complete mess and I don't know how anybody has learned anything from it
Are you referring to MTW?
 
  • #43
ergospherical said:
this is probably one of the worst textbooks I've ever seen
not even trying to be edgy, it's just a complete mess and I don't know how anybody has learned anything from it
Carroll, in his Lecture Notes on General Relativity, said abot MTW the following:
"A heavy book, in various senses. Most things you want to know are in here, although you might have to work hard to get to them (perhaps learning something unexpected in the process)."
 
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  • #44
ergospherical said:
this is probably one of the worst textbooks I've ever seen
not even trying to be edgy, it's just a complete mess and I don't know how anybody has learned anything from it
You mean Landau Lifshitz vol 2? For me it's the most straightforward introduction to GR I've ever read. Of course you can critisize that it sticks to the Ricci calculus only, but that's good for the beginner. Without it, I'd not have had the chance to understand MTW when I learned the subject as a student. MTW is great, but you get too easily lost in all the details before you have an overview about GR from a more introductory level. Of course for the purpose to really get a deeper understanding also for more modern math (Cartan calculus) and more subtle discussions of the physics it's a gem.
 
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  • #45
ergospherical said:
this is probably one of the worst textbooks I've ever seen
not even trying to be edgy, it's just a complete mess and I don't know how anybody has learned anything from it
Which one?
 
  • #46
gravitation by charles misner, kip thorne and john wheeler
 
  • #47
ergospherical said:
gravitation by charles misner, kip thorne and john wheeler
No textbook will be suitable for everybody, but many, many people have learned a great deal from this one, so I think you might want to mute your criticism a bit.
 
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  • #48
PeterDonis said:
No textbook will be suitable for everybody, but many, many people have learned a great deal from this one, so I think you might want to mute your criticism a bit.
no doubt there's some really unique content, I just wish the explanations and the formatting weren't so convoluted and dragged-out so as to make much of it unreadable (to me at least)

maybe it'll be more useful later in my studies, but for now a terser book like Hawking and Ellis is proving much more enjoyable
 
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  • #49
MTW has a special style, but I simply love it, because it's so different from nearly all other books on the topic. The same holds for Kip Thornes newest textbook, which I like even more:

K. S. Thorne, R. D. Blanford, Classical Modern Physics, PUP (2017)

It contains really all "classical physics" (i.e., all non-quantum physics) treating it from a coherent conceptual point of view, emphasizing the geometric aspects of all physics. It treats the classical topics (mechanics, optics, stat. phys.) within both Newtonian and special+general relativistic physics in a really clear way. Maybe it's a bit sparse in showing every detail of all calculations, but emphasizes the general concepts. E.g., the explanation, why the phase-space distribution function in statistical physics is a relativistic scalar, makes this issue (which confuses even practitioners in the field sometimes) very clear.
 
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  • #50
ergospherical said:
this is probably one of the worst textbooks I've ever seen
not even trying to be edgy, it's just a complete mess and I don't know how anybody has learned anything from it
bob012345 said:
Are you referring to MTW?

ergospherical said:
gravitation by charles misner, kip thorne and john wheeler

I think that these students (from the 60s and 70s) were able to learn something from them...
(from https://www.genealogy.math.ndsu.nodak.edu/id.php?id=31332 )

Plesset, Milton Yale University 1932 29 Feynman, Richard Princeton University 1942 48 Wightman, Arthur Princeton University 1949 801 Tiomno, Jayme Princeton University 1950 5 Everett III, Hugh Princeton University 1957 Misner, Charles Princeton University 1957 58 Ernst, Frederick University of Wisconsin-Madison 1958 1 Brill, Dieter Princeton University 1959 34 Klauder, John Princeton University 1959 24 Shepley, Lawrence Princeton University 1965 2 Thorne, Kip Princeton University 1965 274 Geroch, Robert Princeton University 1967 30 Fischer, Arthur Princeton University 1969 Christodoulou, Demetrios Princeton University 1971 31 Unruh, William Princeton University 1971 5 Hu, Bei-Lok Princeton University 1972 38 Wald, Robert Princeton University 1972 5 Ford, Lawrence Princeton University 1974 10 Hojman, Sergio Princeton University 1975 2 Kheyfets, Arkady University of Texas at Austin 1986 1 Miller, Warner University of Texas at Austin 1986 1

Possibly interesting:
http://www.oobject.com/john-wheeler-and-his-elaborate-blackboard-presentations/
1631744763053.png
 
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