Understanding the Debye Model for Solids: Masses and Springs

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Debye model for solids, particularly focusing on its application to a 1D chain of springs and masses representing atoms. Participants explore the accuracy and relevance of the Debye model in calculating dispersion relations and heat capacities, questioning its necessity compared to more detailed models.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the Debye model, questioning why it simplifies the dispersion relation to a straight line instead of using the more accurate relation for internal energy calculations.
  • Another participant argues that solving the equations of motion for a 3D system of masses connected by springs is complex and likely requires computational methods, emphasizing the challenges of analytical solutions.
  • A third participant notes that the Debye model was developed before modern computational methods and suggests that periodic boundary conditions can simplify the analysis of coupled springs.
  • Further discussion raises questions about the applicability of the Debye model in 2D systems and its historical context, including whether numerical methods were available at the time of its development.
  • Some participants defend the Debye model, stating its purpose is to accurately calculate heat capacities at low temperatures, where only low-energy phonons contribute significantly, and that detailed atomic structure is less critical in this regime.
  • Analogies are drawn between the Debye model and other effective theories, such as quantum electrodynamics, to illustrate the model's utility despite its simplifications.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the effectiveness and necessity of the Debye model. While some acknowledge its limitations, others defend its relevance for specific applications, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved regarding its overall value compared to more detailed models.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the limitations of the Debye model, including its reliance on approximations and the conditions under which it is applicable, such as low temperatures and long wavelengths of phonons. The discussion also reflects on the historical context of the model's development.

Wminus
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Hi! I feel like I've understood none of this stuff!

A 1D chain of springs and masses modeling a chain of atoms has a dispersion relation ala ## \omega## ~ ##|sin(k a /2) |##, where ##k## is the wave vector and ##a## the distance between atoms. As far as I have understood, the debye model (in 1D) approximates this dispersion relation as simply a straight line, and from that calculates the heat capacity. But why bother doing that?? Wouldn't it be more accurate to use the proper dispersion relation to calculate the internal energy of the chain of atoms as a function of temperature? And this would just carry over to 3D, right?

Why not just treat the atoms in the solid as a bunch of masses connected to each other with springs vibrating at various modes? Surely it isn't too difficult for a physicist with some grit to solve such a system? And how accurate is this mass-and-spring model anyways?
 
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Well, I must disagree with you on this one. It is by no means trivial to solve the equations of motion for a 3D-system of masses connected with springs. I have a background in computational physics and mathematical modeling. Without having looked to much into the details, I would guess there wouldn't even be possible to find an analytical solution, even if all masses, and all spring constants were equal.

Just to enlighten the difficulity, consider a simple cubic lattice of lattice constant a, and let's try 2D first. We can label each particle by i,j, which at rest will be positioned at (x_i,y_j) = (i a,j a) respectively. There will be four neighbouring particles which are connected with springs such that the total force on our particle will be

<br /> \sum \vec{F} = F_{north} + F_{south} + F_{west} + F_{east} = - k( \vec{r}_n + \vec{r}_s + \vec{r}_w + \vec{r}_e) = \vec{r}_{i,j}<br />

note that \vec{r}_e is the position of particle (i+1,j), \vec{r}_w of (i-1,j), and so on for the north and south particles.

To make this the simplest possible problem, we assume there is a finite number of N^2 particles, that is, N particles in both the i and j directions. We can then treat this a a Boundory Value Problem (BVP) and demand that the end of the crystal is kept at rest: these particles are held fast.

This, actually really simple system, will result in a large set of N^2 equations on the form

m \frac{d^2}{dt^2}\vec{r}_{i,j} = \sum \vec{F}

which will written out, be a matrix equation. Morover, the number of unknowns (rows&colums of the matrix) will be doubled as the 2D-vectors will need to be to decomposed into separate directions.

I might be wrong, but I am pretty sure this will have to be solved computationally. Even though 1D models are boring, they tend to catch the qualitative behaviour of many physical systems, and are better suited as teaching material as they may be solved as exam problems with pen and paper.
 
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The Debye model stems from a time long before the advent of computers. Of course nowadays you can calculate better dispersion relations for the phonons and calculate heat capacities etc. from it.
As a sidenote to mhsd91: Usually you would impose periodic boundary conditions and make use of the periodicity of the system using Bloch's theorem. Then at least the model of coupled springs becomes quite tractable.
 
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Thanks for the replies. I guess I can appreciate the difficulty of the spring and mass model, but still the Debye model is completely pointless for the 1D example.. So in 1D it just linearizes the dispersion relation. What does it do in 2D? Does it turn the dispersion relation into a cone from a parabola? I read in wikipedia that debye's approximation models the system as "phonons in a box". Can't seem to understand anything more of it though, anyone care to help?

As for the computers: Surely you could still find an accurate dispersion relation back in the old days numerically? Did they really not have anything better than Debye's approximation 100 years ago?
 
The Debye model is not as bad as it may seem. It's goal is (among others) to calculate the heat capacity for temperatures much lower than the Debye temperature. Hence practically only the phonons of lowest energy (and k values) will contribute to the heat capacity and in this range the dispersion relation is linear in an excellent approximation. Only phonons whose wavelength is much larger than the atomic spacing contribute and thus the detailed molecular structure of the solid isn't important.
You would also not argue that one shouldn't use the index of refraction in optics to calculate a lens system but use a full fledged solution of the microscopic Maxwell equations?

In fact, the situation is not very different, say, in quantum electrodynamics (QED). QED is only an effective field theory whose range is limited to rather low energies (e.g. as compared to the Planck scale). Nevertheless, it makes very precise predictions for, say, the fine structure of atoms.
 
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DrDu said:
The Debye model is not as bad as it may seem. It's goal is (among others) to calculate the heat capacity for temperatures much lower than the Debye temperature. Hence practically only the phonons of lowest energy (and k values) will contribute to the heat capacity and in this range the dispersion relation is linear in an excellent approximation. Only phonons whose wavelength is much larger than the atomic spacing contribute and thus the detailed molecular structure of the solid isn't important.
You would also not argue that one shouldn't use the index of refraction in optics to calculate a lens system but use a full fledged solution of the microscopic Maxwell equations?

In fact, the situation is not very different, say, in quantum electrodynamics (QED). QED is only an effective field theory whose range is limited to rather low energies (e.g. as compared to the Planck scale). Nevertheless, it makes very precise predictions for, say, the fine structure of atoms.
OK good points. After I slept on it everything is more clear. Thanks for the help!
 

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