Understanding the Ricci and Riemann Curvature Tensors in Tensor Calculus

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the Ricci and Riemann Curvature Tensors within the context of tensor calculus, exploring their definitions, functions, and implications in general relativity. Participants examine the relationship between these tensors, particularly focusing on the contraction of indices and the information that may be lost in this process. The conversation includes theoretical insights and historical inquiries regarding the formulation of these concepts.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Historical

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants describe the Ricci Tensor as derived from the Riemann Curvature Tensor through index contraction, noting that it retains essential information for Einstein's field equations.
  • Others argue that the Riemann Curvature Tensor provides a complete description of curvature, while the Ricci Tensor represents a "trace" part, losing some information that may not be necessary for certain applications.
  • A participant highlights that the Ricci Tensor has 10 independent components compared to the Riemann Tensor's 20, with the remaining components being part of the Weyl Tensor.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of the Weyl Tensor, particularly in relation to gravitational waves and regions of spacetime devoid of gravitational radiation.
  • Some participants inquire about the historical formulation of these tensors and the methods used to derive their components, suggesting that the Riemann Tensor emerges from the double covariant derivative of the separation between worldlines.
  • Another participant connects the concept of worldlines to curvature, suggesting that the behavior of these lines can indicate the degree of curvature in spacetime.
  • The geodesic deviation equation is mentioned, linking the Riemann Tensor to the relative acceleration of points along worldlines.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the roles and implications of the Ricci and Riemann Tensors, with no consensus reached on the extent of information loss due to contraction or the historical formulation of these concepts. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the complete understanding of these tensors and their applications.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the understanding of the Ricci and Riemann Tensors may depend on specific definitions and contexts, and the implications of their components and relationships are still being explored.

Jack3145
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The Ricci Tensor comes from the Riemann Curvature Tensor:

[tex]R^{\beta}_{\nu\rho\sigma} = \Gamma^{\beta}_{\nu\sigma,\rho} - \Gamma^{\beta}_{\nu\rho,\sigma} + \Gamma^{\alpha}_{\nu\sigma}\Gamma^{\beta}_{\alpha\ rho} - \Gamma^{\alpha}_{\nu\rho}\Gamma^{\beta}_{\alpha\sigma}[/tex]

The Ricci Tensor just contracts one of the indices:

[tex]R_{\nu\rho} = R^{\beta}_{\nu\rho\beta}[/tex]

What is the function of the Ricci Tensor and the Riemann Curvature Tensor? How does the contraction of indices change the effect?
 
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Welcome to PF!

Jack3145 said:
What is the function of the Ricci Tensor and the Riemann Curvature Tensor? How does the contraction of indices change the effect?

Hi Jack3145! Welcome to PF! :smile:

The Riemann Curvature Tensor is the curvature … it tells us everything!

Contraction of indices loses information … but it's information we don't need for for Einstein's field equations, for example.

The Ricci tensor is the "trace" part of the Riemann Tensor … it has 10 independent components, out of the Riemann Tensor's 20 (the other 10 are in the Weyl tensor, the "tracefree" part of the Riemann Tensor).

The Ricci tensor is all we need to know for Einstein's field equations …

[tex]R_{\mu\nu}\ -\ \frac{1}{2}\,R\,g_{\mu\nu}\ =\ 8\pi\,T_{\mu\nu}[/tex] or [tex]T_{\mu\nu}-\ \frac{1}{2}\,T\,g_{\mu\nu}\ =\ \frac{1}{8\pi}\,R_{\mu\nu}[/tex]​

The Ricci tensor, loosely speaking, describes the relative volumes of elements of space, while the Weyl tensor describes their relative shear and twisting. :smile:
 
I previously saved the following since it gave a nice insight:

"The Ricci tensor-- or equivalently, the Einstein tensor-- represents that part of the gravitational field which is due to the immediate presence of nongravitational energy and momentum.

The Weyl tensor represents the part of the gravitational field which can propagate as a gravitational wave through a region containing no matter or nongravitational fields.

Regions of spacetime in which the Weyl tensor vanishes contain no gravitational radiation and are also conformally flat, which implies for example that light rays passing through such a region exhibit no light bending."

What I haven't found yet is how these were originally formulated... how did they figure out the components in the first place?
 
Last edited:
What I haven't found yet is how these were originally formulated... how did they figure out the components in the first place?

If I remember correctly, the Riemann tensor emerges when you do a double covariant derivative of the separation between two worldlines. The relative acceleration of the two points depends on the Riemann tensor only.
 
Mentz, while I don't understand the full implications of your post it makes a lot of sense since world lines provide a measure of space curvature...some start out parallel and stay that way, others converge,others diverge...so derivatives would seem to measure that rate of change/ degree of curvature...Thank you!
 
geodesic deviation equation

Mentz114 said:
If I remember correctly, the Riemann tensor emerges when you do a double covariant derivative of the separation between two worldlines. The relative acceleration of the two points depends on the Riemann tensor only.

Yes, the LHS of the geodesic deviation equation is the double covariant derivative of the separation between two initially parallel (ie with the same 4-velocity) worldlines, and the RHS is the Riemann tensor acting on the 4-velocity and the initial separation:

[tex]\frac{D^2\,\delta x^{\alpha}}{D\tau^2}\ =\ -\,R^{\alpha}_{\ \mu\beta\sigma}\,V^{\mu}\,V^{\sigma}\,\delta x^{\beta}[/tex]

for 4-velocity [itex]V[/itex] and separation [itex]\delta x[/itex]

where [itex]\tau[/itex] is proper time and [itex]R[/itex] is the Riemann curvature tensor :smile:
 

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