Unnecessary magnetic poles ?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the necessity of the concept of magnetic poles in the context of current-carrying wires and coils. Participants explore whether the traditional understanding of magnetic north and south poles is essential or if it can be replaced by a more direct explanation involving the interactions of electric currents.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that the attraction and repulsion between current-carrying wires can be explained without invoking magnetic poles, suggesting that it is the direct interaction of currents that is responsible.
  • Others challenge the claim that currents themselves attract or repel, stating that it is the magnetic fields generated by these currents that influence the behavior of nearby wires.
  • A participant questions the validity of the concept of concentric magnetic field lines around a wire, suggesting that the observed effects are due to lateral forces acting on current-carrying coils or compass needles.
  • Some participants note that the naming of magnetic poles is arbitrary and that the distinction serves a practical purpose in navigation, but may not reflect a fundamental reality in physics.
  • There is mention of the law of "no magnetic monopoles" from Maxwell's equations, with some participants suggesting that this supports the view that magnetic poles are not fundamental to understanding magnetic interactions.
  • One participant suggests that while the concept of poles is necessary for beginners, it may become unnecessary as one progresses in understanding magnetism.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity and validity of the concept of magnetic poles. While some acknowledge the usefulness of the concept for educational purposes, others argue against its fundamental relevance in explaining magnetic interactions, leading to an unresolved debate.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the limitations of the current understanding, including the dependence on definitions of magnetic fields and the unresolved nature of certain theoretical aspects, such as the existence of magnetic monopoles.

  • #31
Fairfield,

I think that by limiting your definition to current carrying coils you are barking up the wrong tree. I really think it has to be defined in terms of charge.

Also, I'm not confused about the static vs electromagnetic wave. The point of contention is much more about what constitutes the difference between an electric and a magnetic field. I had assumed it was the kinks in all cases. I wasn't married to that idea, it just seemed to be what the sources were saying. Apparently when it comes to the case of a current carrying wire they aren't saying anything, simply that is it so. I don't find that very insightful.
 
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  • #32
Originally posted by zoobyshoe
Fairfield,

"I think that by limiting your definition to current carrying coils you are barking up the wrong tree. I really think it has to be defined in terms of charge."

OK. Moving charges. But these charges have been somewhat usurped, maybe completley, by the positive charge that is moving them. So maybe moving charges is not the whole story.

Originally posted by zoobyshoe

"The point of contention is much more about what constitutes the difference between an electric and a magnetic field."

In my opinion, regarding coils and magnets, its only the effect of a different shape of the "electric" field (more focused),the term "electric field" being in, this case, a stand-in for the interactive forces between parallel wired currents (attraction or repulsion). In straight wired currents I believe people simply became hypnotized by the responses of magnetic compass needles (which have rearranged "electric" fields themselves).
 
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