Unraveling the Mystery of Gravity and Space-Time Curvature in General Relativity

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter -Job-
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Gravity
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature of gravity and space-time curvature as described by General Relativity (GR). Participants explore conceptual questions regarding the mechanisms behind the curvature of space-time, the directionality of this curvature, and the implications for understanding gravity. The scope includes theoretical considerations and conceptual clarifications related to GR.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express confusion about why space-time curves in a specific direction and not in others, questioning the underlying reasons for this directional curvature.
  • One participant references a quote by John Archibald Wheeler, suggesting that mass influences the curvature of space-time, but this raises further questions about the nature of this influence.
  • Another participant discusses the mathematical representation of space-time and how curvature affects trajectories, noting that curvature is crucial for understanding projectile motion in space-time.
  • Some participants argue that the concept of direction in curvature may be meaningless, emphasizing that objects follow geodesic paths regardless of how curvature is visualized.
  • There is a repeated inquiry into why matter would cause space to curve in a particular way, leading to discussions about the implications of visualizing curvature as bumps or dips.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally express uncertainty about the reasons behind the directional nature of space-time curvature, with multiple competing views on the significance of this directionality and the visualization of curvature. The discussion remains unresolved, with no consensus reached on these conceptual questions.

Contextual Notes

Limitations in understanding arise from the abstract nature of space-time curvature and the challenges in visualizing higher-dimensional concepts. The discussion highlights the dependence on interpretations and models that may not fully capture the complexities of GR.

-Job-
Science Advisor
Messages
1,152
Reaction score
4
In GR gravity is modeled well by the curving of space-time, as shown in pictures like these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Spacetime_curvature.png
I've always liked GR but i don't understand why space is being bent. In the picture above, which i don't take literally as it is only a model, it looks as if the curvature of space responsible for gravity is itself caused by something like gravity, something that causes matter to bend space in always the same direction. I researched online and even thought of some models to explain this like http://www.bloo.us/branegrav.gif" but wasn't completely satisfied. I need some insight.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Physics news on Phys.org
"Mass grips spacetime, telling it how to curve, but also spacetime itself grips spacetime, transmitting curvature from near to far." -John Archibald Wheeler, A Journey into Gravity and Spacetime, p. 15.
 
But why does it tell it to curve in a given direction instead of the other one? Why doesn't it curve in another direction, or why doesn't it curve in all kinds of directions? Why does it curve in the fourth dimension instead of our x, y, z?
 
Last edited:
One usually pictures spacetime reduced to three dimensions. Where either space or time is dominant, one can approximate by keeping only the prevalent term(s). Space requires the shortest path distance between two events, and spacetime the longest!

If you were to calculate the hypotenuse of three dimensional space using the Pythagorean theorem, this is readily apparent. You can also analyze a 4-dimensional spacetime (applying the hypotenuse r as r2=x2+y2+z2-(ct)2) to show spacetime paths maximize trajectories. Much of the unique properties of spacetime arises from the negative time-squared term.

Curvature is the key quantity to ascertain the trajectory of a projectile in spacetime. (See my above reference, page 8.) In the vicinity of Earth, curvature is negligible except in rare satellite or classical experiments formulated to prove general relativity. So far I have referred primarily to special relativity's flat space (like the Minkowskian cone equation above).

General relativity approximates special relativity in spacetime local to the observer, but overall determines the curvature of such entities as the universe, black holes, and quantum gravity. One can consider the neighborhood of these objects as occupied by Minkowski cones point-by-point, denoting gradually variable curvature and the relation between time and space.
 
-Job- said:
But why does it tell it to curve in a given direction instead of the other one? Why doesn't it curve in another direction, or why doesn't it curve in all kinds of directions? Why does it curve in the fourth dimension instead of our x, y, z?
The "direction" is actually meaningless, all that is important is that objects follow geodesic paths--a geodesic along a curved 2D surface would be the path between two points on the surface with the shortest distance (like a section of a great circle on the surface of a sphere), so this path would be the same regardless of how the surface is oriented, you could equally well represent sources of gravity as bumps rather than dips. But this picture is misleading in another way--general relativity does not actually say objects take geodesic paths through curved 3D space, rather it says they take geodesic paths through curved 4D spacetime. In most situations this means the path through spacetime with the largest value of the proper time (the time ticked by a clock which follows that path), although as was pointed out to me on another thread recently, there are some cases where it can mean the path with the minimum proper time.
 
My question regarding direction is more in the vein of why aren't there both bumps and dimps or why are there only bumps or only dimps. Assuming that there is a physical equivalent to the model of curved spacetime, why would matter curve space in a given direction, rather than another one, even if the direction itself is not relevant in producing GRs predictions.
 
-Job- said:
My question regarding direction is more in the vein of why aren't there both bumps and dimps or why are there only bumps or only dimps. Assuming that there is a physical equivalent to the model of curved spacetime, why would matter curve space in a given direction, rather than another one, even if the direction itself is not relevant in producing GRs predictions.
What I was saying is that the orientation of the surface has no physical meaning, only the curvature enters into the equations of GR. Bumps vs. dips only appears in our visualization of a curved 2D surface sitting in a higher 3D space, to a bug living on the surface who is only interested in finding the shortest path between points, the orientation of the surface in the higher space has no effect on what it experiences. And the math of GR is from a "bug's-eye" point of view, dealing only with the curvature of spacetime and the geodesic paths through it, as measured by someone within the spacetime...no higher-dimensional space appears in the equations. So it's not like you can count the number of bumps and the number of dips and compare them, the distinction is simply meaningless.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 58 ·
2
Replies
58
Views
4K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 26 ·
Replies
26
Views
3K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 48 ·
2
Replies
48
Views
5K
  • · Replies 95 ·
4
Replies
95
Views
7K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K