Count Iblis
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Sam, I have a better idea. Find a way to genetically manipulate bacteria or plants so that they will produce electricity using photosynthesis.
Count Iblis said:Sam, I have a better idea. Find a way to genetically manipulate bacteria or plants so that they will produce electricity using photosynthesis.
cesiumfrog said:Just burn plants. Or is that politically incorrect?
I'm curious so I may do that math myself, but the Stefan-Boltzman law doesn't say anything about area/intensity. Ie, it doesn't matter what the intensity is, if two objects facing each other are emitting the same spectrum of light (ie, they are at the same temperature), there will be no net energy transfer between them. You can't focus one's light to transfer its energy to the other.DaleSpam said:I think any further posts claiming that a lens can focus radiation in order to make the target hotter than the source should include a ray diagram. I won't be able to take the time any time soon, but I suspect that the geometry will side with cesiumfrog and the 2nd law of thermo. (although I would like to see the diagram anyway if someone has the time)
Hmm, the version of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan-Boltzmann_law" I learned does. It talks about "total energy radiated per unit surface area of a black body in unit time". I got this from Wiki, so it could easily be incorrect.russ_watters said:the Stefan-Boltzman law doesn't say anything about area/intensity.
russ_watters said:Oops...yah, so I was way wong about that part (and I really knew that). The point I was trying to make (the next sentence) is that area doesn't matter in whether objects radiate toward each other. They won't exchange energy if they are the same temperature, regardless of how the energy is concentrated.
The equation is q = ε σ (Th4 - Tc4) Ac http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/radiation-heat-transfer-d_431.html
I don't like the way they did their subscripts, but in any case, Ac is the area of the object. The area of the surroundings doesn't enter the equation at all and the result is that if there is no temperature difference, there is no heat transfer.
I would say it was too early, but it was 10:00 in the morning...
Ok Sam, let's do some rough calculations based on these figures.Sam Lee said:This can be proven theoretically, at least for a start.
We know the sun is about 6000 deg C (about 6300K).
We also know that the sun radiation is about 1kW/m2.
We also know that we can focus the sun's rays using fresnel lens to about 1 cm2 diameter.
Now, using a thermal storage cylinder with a small opening at the top, we can focus the sun's ray into the thermal storage cylinder through its opening.
The thermal storage cylinder receives about 90% of the radiation that hits the fresnel lens.
From here, we know the energy input into the thermal storage cylinder.
We can design the thermal storage such that the heat loss is less than the energy input for temperatures less than 6300K. (Example, the emissitivity of aluminium foil is 0.03).
So the internal temperature of the thermal storage will keep rising as energy input is greater than energy loss.
uart said:Ok Sam, let's do some rough calculations based on these figures.
When we use a lens to focus light from an object then the best focus we can obtain gives an image of the object with a size ratio of Image Size / Object Size = Image Distance / Object Distance, with distances measured from the lens. This is becasue an object at any finite distance has rays that are not parallel but diverging (I'm pretty sure you were already taking this into account).
So if we want for example a one cm diameter image of the Sun then the required focal length can be calculated from the thin lens formula, 1/I + 1/O = 1/F, where I and O are the image and object distances and F the focal length. This formula can be re-arranged to give the image linear scale factor of I/O = F/(O-F), which for the case of the Sun we may assume O>>F and hence,
\frac{Image Linear Size}{Oject Linear Size} \simeq \frac{F}{O}
So returning to the desired one cm diameter image we see that the required focal length (maximum) is F = Sun Distance * 1cm / Sun Diameter, which using numerical values gives F is about 1.07 meters. This is the maximum focal length to achieve a 1 cm image, with a shorter focal length we can certainly focus an even smaller image of the Sun.
Heres the problem though. If we stick with a one meter focal length then we can make the lens a fairly large diameter without requiring the light to be bent more than physically possible by the lens (there is a limit because as we go for higher refractive index in order to bend the light more we also run up against the problem of total internal reflection in the lens). If however we go for a short focal length then we can make the image smaller but the diameter of the lens will also have to be smaller to avoid needing to bend the light more than physically possible. In other words we can't really gain anything by going for a smaller image and a shorter focal length.
Ok so let's stick with a 1cm image and a 1m focal length for now. Let's assume we can achieve a focal length about the same as the lens diameter. This will give the lens an area of Pi/4 or about 0.8 m^2. By your figures we can collect about 800 Watts of power over this area. Let's assume 100% of that 800 Watts makes it to our 1cm^2 cavity and is 100% absorbed and the cavity has no thermal conduction losses and the "shiny" part has zero emissivity, that's about as favourable assumptions as we can make ok.
If the cavity did reach a temperature of 6300k then the radiation loss from the cavity would be sigma * T^4 * A = 5.67E-8 * 6300^4 * 1E-4 which is about 9000 Watts leaving our cavity. But by our most optimistic calculations the inflowing energy is only 800 Watts, it doesn't take much effort to workout which way the energy is flowing!
Now you could argue that we could overcome this problem by having a lens with a diameter very much bigger than it's focal length (diameter about 11 times the focal length) but I'm almost certain an optics guru (not my area) could prove that impossible. It certainly seems unlikely to me, I'm pretty sure that total internal reflection in the lens would ruin it even if a material with refractive index high enough to bend the light that much were available. (You'd be looking at bending the light through about 85 degrees!)
The square kilometers of mirrors you refer to do not even attempt to focus the energy down to a 1 cm target. As russ mentions, there is no benefit in focusing the energy that tightly so it isn't done. I am not at all convinced that is possible, and your handwaving argument certainly doesn't demonstrate that.Sam Lee said:Using mirrors, we can bring together square kilometers of sun's radiation to the body in question. This is being used in some solar projects.
Sam Lee said:Count Iblis, I was trying to follow your reply.
It went on quite well in the beginning but it was difficult to link the end and the beginning together.
While the total energy in a system is constant, the amount of energy that can be extracted from it to do useful work is dependent on the temperature, right?
Sam Lee said:Great effort.
My gut feel is that the 1 meter lens diameter (800W) will not provide enough energy to bring something all the way up to 6300K. The scale is off. It should be more fruitful to look at something much bigger, like 100 meters!
Working backwards, in order to receive 9000W, we need to collect the sun's rays from an area of 9 m2 (1kW/m2). Hence we need a lens diameter of 3.4m or more(not 11 times bigger but square root of 11 times bigger). It doesn't look too daunting after all.
Let's check whether such a lens is possible (diameter 3.4m, focal length 1.07m, refractive index 2.4). The power of a thin lens, P = (nlens - no)/no x (1/R1 -1/R2), and the focal length is the inverse of P.
A lens with R1 = 3m and R2 = -3m does give a focal length of 1.07m.
In any case, if lens is a problem, then we can use other means of focusing the sun's ray such as using mirrors or mirrors in combination with lens, (or maybe even gravity to bend and focus light).
Using mirrors, we can bring together square kilometers of sun's radiation to the body in question. This is being used in some solar projects.
Not only that, but the 1m focal distance would be inside the lens!uart said:Firstly a 3.4 meter diameter lens with a radius of curvature 3 meters is hardly a "thin lens",
DaleSpam said:Not only that, but the 1m focal distance would be inside the lens!
You will be better off with mirrors since you don't need to worry about refractive index, but I think you will ultimately hit similar geometric limitations.
russ_watters said:The amount of energy being extracted depends on temperature, yes. But in a solar cell, efficiency goes down as temperature goes up. If you use a collector to drive a thermodynamic cycle (a steam cycle), efficiency goes up as temperature goes up. But there is a practical limit of perhaps 500 K.
Again, it's the second law of thermodynamics:uart said:I'd like to see some argument of why a parabolic mirror would also suffer from some similar limitaion to the lens so we could finally put this to rest.
Heat cannot spontaneously flow from a material at lower temperature to a material at higher temperature.
russ_watters said:Again, it's the second law of thermodynamics:
uart said:Yes obviously I know that, and that's why I know it would be impossible. I'm saying that it would be interesting to see a specific physical or technological limitation in the case of the mirror.
Mapes said:The issue was discussed in J Phys D in 1992-1993. S. Panse ("Non-spontaneous radiative heat transfer," J. Phys. D: Appl. Phys. 25 (1992) 28-31) argued that exceptions to the Second Law could occur in some optical systems similar to the one Sam Lee is proposing. In a rebuttal article, K.M. Browne ("Focused radiation, the second law of thermodynamics and temperature measurements," J. Phys. D: Appl. Phys. 26 (1993) 16-19) showed that in fact the Second Law was not violated in these systems because the finite size of the radiating body prevented focusing its rays to a point.
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K.M. Browne ("Focused radiation, the Second Law of Thermodynamics and temperature measurements," J. Phys. D: Appl. Phys. 26 (1993) 16-19) showed that in fact the Second Law was not violated in these systems because the finite size of the radiating body prevented focusing its rays to a point.
Habanabasa said:For example: Energy emitted from 1 sq m of black body at 300K = 45,927 joules or 62 horse power.