Upgrading a 12V Alternator to Produce a higher output Volts

[Selvven]

Hi could anyone please help with this:-
I have a 12V 90Ah automobile alternator.
is there a way to increase the output volts beyond the 14/13.8v to say 192v?

 

[Windadct]

How much power and what "quality" of the assembly and the requlation of the 192V, full time use - etc... The down and dirty way for 100-200 W is to buy a car inverter and then a simple rectifier will give ~160Vdc -- a transformer between the Inverter and rectifier could provide higher voltages. So we would need more details of what you are trying to do.

 

[Rippetherocker]

Step up transformer? Turn ratio about 16.

 

[berkeman]

I pinged the OP to see if that's maybe a typo, and should be 19.2V...

 

[jim hardy]

think about your basics

voltage is rate of change of flux
which is in proportion to RPM
and its field will make enough flux to produce 15 volts at idle.

192/15 = around 13

so you could spin it 13X idle RPM if it'll stay together...
or you could rewind it with more turns

try a search on
lundell alternator high voltage

here's a couple of my early hits

http://www.rle.mit.edu/per/ConferencePapers/cpConvergence00p583.pdf

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19690026159.pdf

remember your car alternator is a three phase machne

so that suggestion of an external transformer isn't bad.
A military surplus three phase 400 hz transformer and reasonable RPM sounds plausible to me.

 

[Windadct]

Since he do not post AC or DC -- 13.6 and 14V are the typical DC Voltages - what is an alternators typical V before the rectifier (IDK) ?

 

[Rippetherocker]

This post is incredibly vague.

 

[Selvven]

I pinged the OP to see if that's maybe a typo, and should be 19.2V...

Hi there,

no not a typo.
I need to generate enough power to charge an array of 16x12V DC deep cycle batteries(192v connected in series 120AH)

 

[Selvven]

How much power and what "quality" of the assembly and the requlation of the 192V, full time use - etc... The down and dirty way for 100-200 W is to buy a car inverter and then a simple rectifier will give ~160Vdc -- a transformer between the Inverter and rectifier could provide higher voltages. So we would need more details of what you are trying to do.

I have an array of 16x12vDC batteries connected in series giving me my 192vDC required for my power unit.
as I am off the grid, I need to find a mechanism to charge these batteries as I have no AC to use an AC charger. Hence was toying with the idea of using a vehicle alternator.
load would vary but would never be at 100% as I have built in a 25% reserve using a 30KW inverter drawing its source from the DC array.

 

[jim hardy]

what is an alternators typical V before the rectifier (IDK) ?

a sinewave clipped at Vout + a couple diode dropsfound this on youtube

a fellow running one at ~30 volts for a HHO generator

as you can see it's capable of substantially more voltage, how high would the peak be ?

 

[jim hardy]

I need to generate enough power to charge an array of 16x12V DC deep cycle batteries(192v connected in series 120AH)

you'll want a higher voltage rectifier pack

the stator iron will get hot at that flux level and frequency
and you'll not get full 90 amp output current

you'll have to experiment

 

[Selvven]

Step up transformer? Turn ratio about 16.

please can you give me more info on this.
I am assuming that I can use a 12vDC alternator with a step up transformer to provide my 192vDC?

 

[Rippetherocker]

please can you give me more info on this.
I am assuming that I can use a 12vDC alternator with a step up transformer to provide my 192vDC?

The max. power being generated by your alternator is constant. You can play with the voltage at the expense of current. So charging time will be quite high.

 

[Windadct]

OK more info helps... first the string of 16 batteries is not a small investment and if not charged properly you will shorten their life - so IMO I can not see the logic in trying to do this on the cheap. If they are 12V Lead Acid - they will need to be charged at 13.6-14 VDC each x 16... 224 V ! - so a commercial purpose built charger would be better. - Are you going to use the alternator - while in the vehicle? Or some alternate mechanical source? - how will this be controlled. The alternator has a limit of ~ 1KW, - so you will max out at 5A charging current.
There are a number of other ways to address this - I am guessing you already have the AC inverter to go from the batteries to your "house" - if not I would parallel the beatteries, allows charging direct and there are a number of cheap 12 VDC to 120VAC inverters. This is a good case for solar - due to the cost of running an engine.

 

[Selvven]

OK more info helps... first the string of 16 batteries is not a small investment and if not charged properly you will shorten their life - so IMO I can not see the logic in trying to do this on the cheap. If they are 12V Lead Acid - they will need to be charged at 13.6-14 VDC each x 16... 224 V ! - so a commercial purpose built charger would be better. - Are you going to use the alternator - while in the vehicle? Or some alternate mechanical source? - how will this be controlled. The alternator has a limit of ~ 1KW, - so you will max out at 5A charging current.
There are a number of other ways to address this - I am guessing you already have the AC inverter to go from the batteries to your "house" - if not I would parallel the beatteries, allows charging direct and there are a number of cheap 12 VDC to 120VAC inverters. This is a good case for solar - due to the cost of running an engine.

Thanks.
I have the inverter and the battery bank. I also have an AC motor running at 2800rpm .375kw (on a separate circuit drawing from the power provided by the inverter) to drive my Alternator. I also have a comparator under and over voltage control unit that starts and stops the AC motor.
your plan for a commercially built charger has given me an idea. I will invest in a smaller inverter at minimal cost say a 3kw unit which will then be powered by a separate 12vDC battery connected to the alternator. This inverter will then provide AC to the commercial AC charger which will then provide the charge needed for the primary array.

 

[Windadct]

Huh? As I read this you have Battery -> Inverter -> AC Motor -> Alternator -> Back to the Battery? -- Regardless - if the alternator is 90A - you only need a 1000W Continuous inverter ( be sure to look for continuous rating - many vehicle inverters are rated for peak.)

 

[Selvven]

Huh? As I read this you have Battery -> Inverter -> AC Motor -> Alternator -> Back to the Battery? -- Regardless - if the alternator is 90A - you only need a 1000W Continuous inverter ( be sure to look for continuous rating - many vehicle inverters are rated for peak.)

will do so. thank you and all others who commented. it is appreciated.

 

[jim hardy]

your plan for a commercially built charger has given me an idea. I will invest in a smaller inverter at minimal cost say a 3kw unit which will then be powered by a separate 12vDC battery connected to the alternator. This inverter will then provide AC to the commercial AC charger which will then provide the charge needed for the primary array.

Why stop there ? Keep going and run the whole US power grid from your single 12v battery... oh i forgot you're off grid...

Are you aware just what you have written ? Surely it is not what you are thinking ?

 

[Rippetherocker]

Haha is this a perpetual motion machine we are talking about?

 

[Selvven]

Why stop there ? Keep going and run the whole US power grid from your single 12v battery... oh i forgot you're off grid...

Are you aware just what you have written ? Surely it is not what you are thinking ?

Not sure I understand you.
this is what I have in place already:-
30kw inverter receiving input from 192v battery array. this feeds my home with 30kw of AC 220v power.
I then have on a separate circuit my 220v AC motor which drives my 12vDC 90ah alternator. I need this to re-charge my batteries, hence the thread,
based on suggestions from Windadct, a secondary circuit with a separate inverter will power up a commercial AC charger which will charge my 16 batteries.
my single battery is required to power the second inverter only.
am I missing something. all circuits are separate.

 

[berkeman]

I then have on a separate circuit my 220v AC motor which drives my 12vDC 90ah alternator. I need this to re-charge my batteries,

Where does the electrical power for that motor come from? That's what everybody is asking at this point...

 

[Selvven]

Where does the electrical power for that motor come from? That's what everybody is asking at this point...

this is powered from the 30kw inverter. the motor draws 375watts and runs at 2800rpm

 

[berkeman]

this is powered from the 30kw inverter. the motor draws 375watts and runs at 2800rpm

What powers the inverter?

 

[Selvven]

What powers the inverter?

the bank of 16 12vDC batteries connected in series producing 192vDC

 

[berkeman]

Okay, this thread is just about done.

What you are describing is an over-unity mechanism, where no energy is input from the outside world, but you can still power your house from it. Such topics are forbidden topics on the PF because they do not exist and are a waste of time to discuss. You need some energy input from something (wind, hydro, solar, burning fossil fuels) to store in your batteries, and then the inverter can convert that stored energy into power for your home. The energy delivered to your home is the outside input energy minus conversion losses.

Unless you can point out something that we are missing, this thread will be closed.

 

[Selvven]

Okay, this thread is just about done.

What you are describing is an over-unity mechanism, where no energy is input from the outside world, but you can still power your house from it. Such topics are forbidden topics on the PF because they do not exist and are a waste of time to discuss. You need some energy input from something (wind, hydro, solar, burning fossil fuels) to store in your batteries, and then the inverter can convert that stored energy into power for your home. The energy delivered to your home is the outside input energy minus conversion losses.

Unless you can point out something that we are missing, this thread will be closed.

the energy for the 16 batteries will come from the commercial charger powered by the second inverter which in turn is fed from a single 12vDc battery. this battery will be charged by my alternator which is driven by the AC Motor.

in other words, there are 2 systems working in a symbiotic relationship. this means I require no input from the outside world.

 

[berkeman]

the energy for the 16 batteries will come from the commercial charger powered by the second inverter which in turn is fed from a single 12vDc battery. this battery will be charged by my alternator which is driven by the AC Motor.

in other words, there are 2 systems working in a symbiotic relationship. this means I require no input from the outside world.

Yes you do. This thread is done. Please read through the links from the PF Rules about Forbidden Topics (quoted below) to see why you can't have an over-unity or perpetual motion machine (PMM) that does useful work and requires no outside energy input.

PF Forbidden Topics -- Pseudoscience, such as (but not limited to):

Perpetual motion and "free energy" discussions
http://wiki.4hv.org/index.php/Free_Energy_Debunking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion
http://www.skepdic.com/freeenergy.html
http://www.skepdic.com/perpetual.html