Variational calculus in particle dynamics

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Principle of Least Action in the context of variational calculus and its application to particle dynamics. Participants explore the derivation of the Euler-Lagrange equation and the methodology for finding extremal functions that minimize a given functional.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why the derivative of the functional isn't simply set to zero to find extrema, suggesting a misunderstanding of the goal of finding the function y(x) that minimizes the functional J.
  • Another participant clarifies that the aim is to determine a function y(x) over an interval, necessitating a specific procedure rather than a straightforward maximization/minimization approach.
  • A third participant explains the definition of the functional derivative and emphasizes that the method is used to derive the Euler-Lagrange equation, which transforms a complex functional integral into a more manageable differential equation.
  • One participant acknowledges a gap in their understanding of multivariable calculus, indicating that this may be contributing to their confusion about the topic.
  • A later reply mentions a classic text by Cornelius Lanczos that provides insights into the Euler-Lagrange equation and boundary conditions, suggesting it as a resource for further study.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding the derivation of the Euler-Lagrange equation and the application of variational calculus. There is no consensus on the initial participant's questions, as different interpretations and clarifications are offered without resolution.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in the initial participant's understanding of multivariable calculus, which may affect their grasp of the variational calculus concepts being discussed. Additionally, the complexity of transforming functional integrals into differential equations is acknowledged but not fully resolved.

Who May Find This Useful

Readers interested in variational calculus, the Principle of Least Action, and the Euler-Lagrange equation, particularly those studying mechanics or advanced calculus, may find this discussion beneficial.

Lillensassi
Messages
5
Reaction score
0
I'm reading about the Principle of Least Action.
As a prelude to it, we look at the functional

J(x)=\int f(y(x),y'(x);x) dx
where the limits of integration are x_1 and x_2.
We want to find the function y(x) that gives the functional an extremum.
Now, to do this, we write any possible function y(x) as the sum of the sought function y_0(x) and another function η(x) times a constant α, that is:
y(x)=y_0(x)+αη(x)
so our aim is then to minimize the functional J as a functional of α,
J(α)=\int f(y(α,x),y'(α,x);x) dx
and the book says "The condition that the integral have a stationary value, (i.e. that an extremum results) is that J be independent of α in the first order along the path giving the extremum (α=0), or, equivalenty, that
\frac{\partial J}{\partial α}=0 at α=0".

Now I have two questions:
1. Why not just take the derivative of the functional and put it equal to zero, like we've done when maximizing/minimizing things in Calculus class? and
2. If we know how to make α=0, why do we have to go to the trouble of differentiating the function at all? Isn't the conclusion just stating an obvious fact and not bringing any solution to the table?

I hope my reasoning is understandable, I haven't really completely grasped what I'm doing yet...!

p.s. the text is taken from the book Classical Dynamics of Particles and Systems of Marion and Thornton
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Q1: You're not trying to find an extreme value for J. You're trying to find the function y(x) which minimises it. Finding y(x) means determining a recipe for y values for all x values in the specified interval. That's why a special procedure is needed.

Q2: I humbly suggest that you should try now to get to grips with the actual derivation of the E-L equation, and at least one example of its use. You may well find that Q2 then loses its cogency.
 
1. That is exactly what you are doing. The functional derivative is defined as:

$$\int_{x_1}^{x^2}\frac{\delta J[y(x)]}{\delta y(x)}dx\equiv\left.\frac{dJ[y(x)+\alpha h(x)]}{d\alpha}\right|_{\alpha=0}$$

I don't exactly understand what you mean by this question...

2. We don't know y_0(x). That's exactly what we are trying to find out! If we knew it, obviously we wouldn't waste our time doing this dance. What we are doing with this method of solutions is using the fundamental lemma of the calculus of variations to turn a functional integral equation (very hard to solve otherwise!) into a much more analysis friendly differential equation (the Euler-Lagrange equation).
 
Thank you!
Looks like the problem is lack of knowledge of multivariable calculus from my part. Thank you for pointing me in the right direction - sometimes asking the right questions can be as hard as finding the right answer!
 
I'm currently reading the classic by Cornelius Lanczos; 'The Variational Principles of Mechanics'. It has a good section on the E-L equation,, and is especially helpful ob boundary conditions.It's an old book, but Dover now publish it, so it doesn't cost the earth.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 22 ·
Replies
22
Views
2K
  • · Replies 33 ·
2
Replies
33
Views
5K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
5K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
1K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K