Vector Laplacian: different results in different coordinates

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculation of the Vector Laplacian of a uniform vector field in different coordinate systems, specifically Cartesian and Cylindrical coordinates. Participants explore the implications of the differing results obtained from these calculations and the underlying assumptions involved.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Michel presents a uniform vector field in Cartesian coordinates, yielding a Laplacian of (0,0,0), which aligns with expectations.
  • In Cylindrical coordinates, Michel finds the Laplacian of the same vector field to be (-4cos(t)/r²,-4sin(t)/r²,0), which raises questions about the consistency of results across coordinate systems.
  • Michel expresses confusion over the expectation that the Laplacian should not depend on the choice of coordinate system and seeks clarification on the meaning of the v/r² term in the cylindrical case.
  • Another participant notes that in 2D, the same problem does not lead to contradictions, as the sign of the curl operator in the Vector Laplacian definition changes, resulting in (0,0) in both Cartesian and Polar coordinates.
  • Michel later corrects the cylindrical vector field representation to (vr,vt,vz)=(cos(t),-sin(t),0), suggesting this adjustment resolves the discrepancy.
  • A participant reflects on the process of explaining the problem, noting that it can lead to new insights and a deeper understanding of underlying assumptions.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

The discussion includes corrections and insights, but no consensus is reached on the implications of the differing results in the context of the Vector Laplacian across coordinate systems.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of assumptions in the definitions used, particularly regarding the sign of the curl operator in different dimensions, which may affect the results of the Laplacian.

maajdl
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Hello,

I calculated the Vector Laplacian of a uniform vector field in Cartesian and in Cylindrical coordinates.
I found different results.
I can't see why.

In Cartesian coordinates the vector field is: (vx,vy,vz)=(1,0,0).
Its Laplacian is: (0,0,0) .
That's the result I expected.

In Cylindral coordinates the same vector field becomes: (vr,vt,vz)=(cos(t),sin(t),0).
I found its Laplacian to be: (-4cos(t)/r²,-4sin(t)/r²,0) .

I used Mathematica to calculate this, using the definition for 3D space:

NumberedEquation1.gif


I expected the result would not depend on the choice of the coordinate system.
I also expected the result would be (0,0,0) in any coordinate system.

My motivation was to understand the meaning of a v/r² term appearing in the Laplacian in cylindrical coordinates.
I hoped that probing with a uniform field would help to reveal the meaning.

Would you have a clue?

Thanks,

Michel
 
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Additional comment:

The same problem in 2 dimensions (either Cartesian or Polar coordinates) leads to no contradiction.
This is because the sign before the curl operator in the definition of the Vector Laplacian must be changed to positive in 2D.
In that case, the Laplacian of the above uniform field is indeed (0,0) in both coordinate systems.
 
Sorry!
Just realized my mistake.
The vector field in cylindrical coordinates should read: (vr,vt,vz)=(cos(t),-sin(t),0) .
Then it fits.
 
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Likes   Reactions: vanhees71 and jedishrfu
It's really great that as you describe the problem, the mistake becomes obvious and new insight is gained.

I think this is one motivation for teachers, that as you explain things to students you realize the many assumptions that you have made when you first learned it and your struggle to explain the assumptions forces or inspires you to a new insight.
 
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