News Venezuelans protest Chavez's referendum

[mheslep]

Cheap conspiracy sites?
All they have are links to declassified us documents.
Could you provide a reason of why is this a "Cheap conspiracy site" ?

Its ridiculous to say that 'all they have are links ..'
They do have:
-A banner with a rifle site scrolling across the screen.
-The Golinger reported 'transcript' of Fleischer on the front page is grossly in conflict with the audio of the Fleischer video posted above (6:33)
-A gross, mostly fabricated, personal opinion editorial on the cover of the CIA folder.
-Its rife with smears by association ala 'linked to clandestine CIA actions', 'ex-Trotskyist gone awry'
-Unsupported opinions pretending to be backed by non sequitors.
and so on.

http://venezuelafoia.info/seib11-02preCouprumors.pdf
CIA Document
"There are increased signs that Venezuelan business leader and military officers are becoming dissatisfied [...] The military may move to overthrow him"

So someone was paying attention to the news in the embassy. Glad to hear it. The US opposed any non constitutional moves, told the military the same, and warned Chavez of plots though any bonehead could have read the tabloids and seen it coming. Maybe the 10000's of people protesting the Chavez govt. in the streets were a clue (great pictures in attachments to the IOG report, very end). I've yet to seen any credible evidence at all that says otherwise.

From your evidence:

"pro-Chávez supporters had fired on a huge crowd of peaceful Chavez opponents"
There are videos that show that pro-Chavez supporters where not firing against a crow, but against snippers..

Sure. And >100 civilians wounded while they were shooting at the snipers.

"Chavez had fired his vice president and cabinet and then resigned"
He was kidnapped by opposition forces.

Yes, but internationally the US wasn't the only one that thought he had resigned. See the letter from Giviria, president of the OAS in the annex of the state department report that he also thought Chavez had resigned. Unless you think he was in on the thing too.

So the embassy was WORKING with the interim government?

Nice subtle rewording of what was actually said to ascribe your opinion. No, as the quote says they tried to persuade the interim govt. to return to the rule of law. Hopefully, the US Embassy applied all the influence it could to prevent more violence.

isn't that recognition

No, of course not.

And what you show as evidence is not a proof of anything it's just the testimony of one of the accused parts

You're right in that by and of itself it is not proof. It is however a summary by the Inspector Generals office of the collected testimony of 80 people and a review of 2000 documents. I'm not aware that the IG is noted for bogus evidence. There's a dozen hard attachments at the end in support of the testimony. It is an official US govt. document, available directly from a govt. website, submitted to congress and falsification of such is punishable by law. None of this is true of "venezuelafoia.info"

 

[Yonoz]

Yonoz, do you understand spanish? if you do i can give you a couple of videos where yo can see free speech in venezuela, Beliveme Private media is constanly speaking against chavez, and they are not very polite either, i have ear thinks like:
"The president is crazy", "Suporters of chavez are like Hitler's Support troops", etc, etc. And they were never censored.

IYO, should they have been censored? Does any of this justify Chavez's abuse of state media, or consolidation of power?
If my PM used state media like Chavez does, I'd call him crazy (and a bunch of other words).
I don't remember claiming there was no free speech in Venezuela.

That tv station that closed, was only the end of a contract for using the public frecuency, nothing more.

Why didn't they extend the contract? Have any other stations' contracts ended?

 

[Anttech]

Chavez is a bit of harmless fun in a not so harmless world :D

HELLO PF...

 

[dst]

Source please?

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,688071,00.html

 

[mheslep]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,688071,00.html

First, I was looking for a source to back the claim that the US was the 'first country to [diplomatically] accept the illegitimate .. govt' post above; this article says nothing about that.

Then this guardian article piece is based on anonymous sources, does the usual guilt by association and labeling

Reich is a right-wing Cuban-American... was shown by congressional investigations to report directly to Reagan's National Security Aide, Colonel Oliver North, in the White House. North was convicted and shamed for his role in Iran-Contra ...

Come on, Col. North dug up again? Blah, blah. Blah. Ambassadors were invited to his office blah, blah. Where are the quotes from these ambassadors?

You won't find this 'US backed the coup' stuff reported by any responsible media outlet. NY Times, Post, UK Times, nobody.

 

[Burnsys]

IYO, should they have been censored?

Of course not!

Does any of this justify Chavez's abuse of state media, or consolidation of power?

How do you abuse of state media. Doesn't rupert murdoch "Abuse" of his own media corporations? i don't see the problem with that, that is what state media is for.

If my PM used state media like Chavez does, I'd call him crazy (and a bunch of other words).

That's ok, you can switch the channel! State media is not the only media.

Why didn't they extend the contract? Have any other stations' contracts ended?

And why would i have to extend a contract if it just expires. There is no obligation, That is why contracts have a lifetime.

 

[Burnsys]

First, I was looking for a source to back the claim that the US was the 'first country to [diplomatically] accept the illegitimate .. govt' post above; this article says nothing about that.

Then this guardian article piece is based on anonymous sources, does the usual guilt by association and labeling Come on, Col. North dug up again? Blah, blah. Blah. Ambassadors were invited to his office blah, blah. Where are the quotes from these ambassadors?

You won't find this 'US backed the coup' stuff reported by any responsible media outlet. NY Times, Post, UK Times, nobody.

That's ok, you decide in who to trust. But NY Times not reporting it, doesn't mean it didn't happened.
And the cia documents say they were having dinners, and engaging all the active members of the oposition, Acording to you, they was just telling them: "Play Fair, be democratic". Acording to me, they where ploting the coup. The true is we will never know, Not in vain the cia has a division called: "Clandestine Operations Group".

 

[mjsd]

And the cia documents say they were having dinners, and engaging all the active members of the oposition, Acording to you, they was just telling them: "Play Fair, be democratic". Acording to me, they where ploting the coup. The true is we will never know, Not in vain the cia has a division called: "Clandestine Operations Group".

we shall never know. In addition, it is probably not clear whether toppling Chavez would guarantee a better time for the Venezuelans either. At the moment they have a relatively stable society, sure there are corruptions, there are idiots running around taking stuffs from ppl and intimidating ppl, but whether such relative stability would remain after say Chavez is suddenly toppled or assassinated or simply disappear without a peaceful power transition, it is anyone's guess.

Democracy cannot happen overnight (if you think Venezuela has no real democracy), a coup or an uprising usually lead to chaos, falling economy and suffering for the common people whilst the factions fight for the vacant positions in govt.

we watch what's happening in Venezuela with interest only because it has economic ties with the world oil market, hence, directly affect the economy of other countries. Venezuela is a world power when it comes to oil, and it is not surprising that the US is a bit wary, and perhaps actively pushing for a change in the attitude of the Venezuelan administration.

 

[mheslep]

That's ok, you decide in who to trust.

I wouldn't call it trust. We all must look at info. sources and weigh them.

But NY Times not reporting it, doesn't mean it didn't happened.

Yep, can't prove a negative. NY Times also didn't report the Apollo landing was faked, didn't report the guy on the grassy knoll did it.

And the cia documents say they were having dinners, and engaging all the active members of the opposition. According to you, they was just telling them: "Play Fair, be democratic".

Its not 'according to' me. I cite the public US state department OIG report, and the public statements of the OAS president. Weigh them as you like.

Oh, found some pics of the coup plotters in action! April 11 2002, 100,000 of them:

 

[mheslep]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/12/05/venezuela.chavez/index.html" from El Jefe:

In contrast to the conciliatory tone he took in announcing the victory of the "No" forces early Monday, he heaped scorn on the opposition's "Pyrrhic" victory Wednesday, saying that "they're now filling it with sh--."

"It's a piece of sh-- victory, and ours -- they can call it a defeat, but -- it was courageous, full of valor, full of dignity," he said at the Miraflores presidential palace with his top military commanders.

 

[Yonoz]

How do you abuse of state media. Doesn't rupert murdoch "Abuse" of his own media corporations? i don't see the problem with that, that is what state media is for.

That's ok, you can switch the channel! State media is not the only media.

There's the difference in our understanding of the purpose of state media. IMO, it should not be used as a political mouthpiece of those in power.

And why would i have to extend a contract if it just expires. There is no obligation, That is why contracts have a lifetime.

I'm not sure how it works in Venezuela, but I definitely see a problem with a government refusing to extend such "contracts" on political grounds.