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Venezuelans protest Chavez's referendum

  1. Nov 29, 2007 #1

    Evo

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    Does what Chavez proposes surprise anyone?

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071129/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_constitution
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Nov 29, 2007 #2

    russ_watters

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    Not in the slightest. People in the US complain about Bush's supposed aspirations, but how this real Hitler wannabee got where he is in a supposedly democratic state in the 21st century astounds me.
     
  4. Nov 29, 2007 #3

    Astronuc

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    Chavez is more of Castro or Khrushchev, but not a Hitler.

    It's time for him to go - but peacefully and democratically.

    from the article cited by Evo.
     
  5. Nov 30, 2007 #4
    Chavez would still have to be elected. get real. He's not saying he wants to be president for life. & what other things does the referendum say? can anyone find anything more specific than "socialist state?" Does anyone have any FACTS & not just editorials or commentary? Does anyone know about the CIA's operation pliers?
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2007
  6. Nov 30, 2007 #5
    Chavez has had a bullseye on him for a while.
     
  7. Nov 30, 2007 #6

    Astronuc

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    http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/30/world/americas/30venez.html

    Well there appear to be signs of dissent and dissatisfaction. Perhaps some followers are wonder if Chávez is really helping them or himself.
     
  8. Nov 30, 2007 #7

    russ_watters

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    Incumbents have a natural advantage in elections, and this wouldn't necessarily be his last step. Regardless of how far his people allow him to go, attempting to extend your own term is a clear violation of democratic principles.

    He has also taken other steps that call into question the legitimacy of the elections - he has stopped inviting international observers to watch the elections and purging of political opponents from national organizations, for example.

    He also has the usual socialist trump card: socialists get support by bribing their constituents.
    But he is trying to set up his system to make it possible.
    It also expands his power in other ways, such as:
    The what? What is an "operation plier"?
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2007
  9. Nov 30, 2007 #8

    russ_watters

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    People in a democratic statement can get complacant, but they aren't sheep. Something like this causes them to react pretty strongly. I've never taken part in a political event of any kind, but if someone here tried to get a law passed to extend his own term, I'd be joining the protests.
     
  10. Nov 30, 2007 #9
    I've never heard of that before. If he gets rid of term limits, Venezuela will not be less democratic than countries like Canada, the UK, or the US was before Teddy Roosevelt.

    which political opponents? political opponents who have been funded, organized & generally enabled by the CIA &/or it's front organization, the National Endowment for Democracy? Interesting that you mention legitimacy of Venezuela's elections when US elections have been the laughing stock of the rest of the world since 2000.

    How does he "bribe his constituents?" Luckily things aren't true just because they're asserted confidently by the US-backed opposition in Venezuela.


    http://www.google.com/search?q=operation+pliers
     
  11. Nov 30, 2007 #10
    Anyone who attempts to limit personal liberties should be a concern to everyone.
     
  12. Dec 1, 2007 #11

    russ_watters

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    Yes, it will. You are missing the point. The point isn't the term limits law itself, the point is that he is trying to make the change for himself. It is a violation of democratic principles for the person in power to change a country's laws specifically for his own benefit because it means that he doesn't respect the rule of law. He doesn't believe the law should apply to him.

    This is similar to the Schwarchenegger issue. It isn't necessarily a bad idea to allow a naturalized citizen to become President, but to change the Constitution just so he can be president would be wrong.

    BTW, the converse is also true. It would have been a violation of democratic principles for an amendment to be passed to end TR's Presidency.

    Ok, fair enough. I'm not interested in this or the other conspiracy theories in your post, so I have nothing to say about that.
    You misunderstand. That comment wasn't about Chavez per se and isn't bribery in the literal sense (it is a very thin line, though), just about the reality of how socialism grows/gains support. Socialism gains support because the government hands out money, jobs, housing, etc. via social programs. People love getting free money and good government jobs. It makes no difference if it is Chavez or Roosevelt or even some of the more sinister examples from history. They get their initial support the same way and from the same people (the poor).

    Anyway, what that means is that for someone who intends to sieze power, it is possible to use such policies to mollify the masses while consolidating that power.

    Obviously, we can't know how far Chavez wants to go, but it is not Roosevelt's playbook that he is following. Roosevelt was in power a long time and he brought socialism to the US, but he worked within the system and there was never any question about his commitment to democracy. The fact that Chavez is throwing democratic principles aside is a troubling early sign of what could be coming. I, for one, believe that the term "benevolent dictator" is an oxymoron.
     
    Last edited: Dec 1, 2007
  13. Dec 1, 2007 #12

    mheslep

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    Please. I know the US military rep. for Latin America who went down there in '02. He told the V. military clearly: 'no coup'. As for that website, give me a couple minutes and I'll put one up that says you are behind the mischief down there. Yes, yes, I have the evidence that CNN is afraid to air.
     
  14. Dec 1, 2007 #13
    http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/2943


    http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/analysis/2764

    I doubt anyone here cares enough to actually read either of those since they're fairly long, but those are the details that Americans will probably never find out about. It's so much easier to give the Bush admin the benefit of the doubt.
     
  15. Dec 2, 2007 #14
    How typically egocentric - Bush this, Bush that. It's not only the Bush administration that is worried about Chavez's consolidation of power.
    Chavez has all the hallmark symptoms of a dictator, including a Sunday morning spot on state television. Did someone say "Orwellian"?
     
  16. Dec 2, 2007 #15
    Yes it is. That's the only government that has attempted to overthrow Chavez. The next worst thing I know of is Spain's King telling Chavez to shut up.

    How is that more "Orwellian" than Kevin Rudd appearing on ABC or Gordon Brown appearing on BBC, or Stephen Harper appearing on CBC? Did you know Canada's throne speech (kind of like a state of the union address) was broadcast all over the country in September, at primetime, on state television? Explain to me how that is any less "Orwellian" than Chavez having a Sunday morning spot on Venezuela state tv.
     
  17. Dec 2, 2007 #16
    Isn't the only reason we care is because of all the oil we get from them? Say if Chavez was in Nicaragua, he'd get no news coverage.
     
  18. Dec 2, 2007 #17

    turbo

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    For a country with lots of people in remote, rural locations and spotty access to electricity and TVs, it makes perfect sense to have public speeches aired when people can congregate to watch and listen to them.
     
  19. Dec 2, 2007 #18

    Gokul43201

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    How different is this from the Sunday morning spot on US radio that every President of the US has enjoyed since the 20's?

    While I've got dozens of reasons for disliking Chavez (including the details of many of the proposed changes), I don't see how submitting a proposal of changes that will be voted on by the people is itself a terrible subversion of the democratic process. We've seen cases in the US where laws have been made/changed by Presidential dictat or Executive Order and the only recourse the people have, is to take the trash out sometime in the next 4 years.

    I think the big concern here should be about whether the process has been given the time and tools necessary to sufficiently inform the populace about the details of the proposed changes and provide for a fair polling of their opinions, and I don't doubt for a second that Chavez will try and pull every dirty trick in the book to skew the results.
     
    Last edited: Dec 2, 2007
  20. Dec 2, 2007 #19

    mheslep

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    No, The Republic of Fourier is the only government that has to attempted to overthrow Chavez.

    Ok, please site some evidence, just a little bit of non-conspiracy minded evidence that backs up that outrageous 'overthrow' claim.
     
  21. Dec 2, 2007 #20

    mjsd

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    there will never be any "real evidence" backing up that sort of outrageous overthrow claim... well at least not in the next 50 years (EVEN IF these allegations are true). If these are the work of the CIA or whatever, I bet you will never ever know anything about their operations.... because their operations are meant to be secretive (by definition!).

    Our system is a great system isn't it?? We elect ppl to oversee and have control over these so-called security agencies (to keep us safe by the way....) and we have absolutely no #$%&! idea what they actually do. I hope they won't do anything against our moral ideals but when there is oil involved..... I would be a bit skeptical....

    Still, perhaps the CIA is better than the secret police used by Chavez to rig election, to give himself more powers and to deprive the world of his oil. But at the end of the day, we just don't know, we don't even know what the CIA really does.

    As far as the issue of Chavez, the US media is skewed far too much towards Washington, and sooner or later we may even turn Venezuela into the new Iraq! Now, let's not get too over-excited, we still haven't finished the war in the ME.

    I wonder what the majority of Venezuelans really think of Chavez. If we don't like him, that doesn't automatically mean the average struggling Venezuelans would agree with us.
     
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