Voltage drop across ideal solenoidal inductor

AI Thread Summary
The discussion centers on verifying Faraday's law in an LCR circuit involving an ideal solenoidal inductor with zero resistance. The user encounters conflicting results when calculating the voltage drop across the solenoid, leading to confusion about the integration path and the application of Lenz's law versus Faraday's law. Responses suggest that the integration path must be closed and that the flux surface is complex, recommending a simplification to a flat loop for clarity. The user acknowledges the complexity of the solenoid's surface and considers approximations based on the solenoid's geometry. The conversation concludes with suggestions to analyze a series of flat loops to better understand the voltage behavior along the solenoidal path.
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First by ideal I mean zero resistance. I tried to verify Faraday's law in simple LCR circuit but ran into some conflicting results. Though the description below will be a little verbose, the configuration for this problem is extremely simple: assume that I put a solenoid ##\left\{\begin{array}{c} x(\tau) = r_0 \cdot cos (\omega \cdot \tau) \\ y(\tau) = r_0 \cdot sin (\omega \cdot \tau) \\ z(\tau) = v \cdot \tau \end{array}\right. ## in a 3D Cartesian coordinate. Given 2 points ##a, b## on this solenoid where ##a## corresponds to ##\tau=0## and ##b## corresponds to ##\tau=T##(large enough to contain more than 1 turn). All constants are positive if not otherwise specified.

If a current ##I## flows in direction ##a \rightarrow b## then it yields a ##\textbf{B}## field to the ##z_+## direction. Now assume that ##\frac{\partial I}{\partial t} > 0##, according to Lenz's law, I shall expect the inductive ##\textbf{E}## field circulates clockwisely viewed in direction ##z_+ \rightarrow z_-##, i.e. ##\textbf{E}(\textbf{r}) = |E(\textbf{r})| \cdot sin\theta \cdot \hat{\textbf{x}} + (-|E(\textbf{r})| \cdot cos\theta) \cdot \hat{\textbf{y}}## where ##\theta## is the angle subtended by ##\textbf{r}## counter-clockwisely with respect to ##x-axis##.

I suppose that the voltage DROP from a to b is positive in this case, i.e. ## \int_0^T \textbf{E} \cdot d \textbf{l} > 0##, however the path integral

## \int_0^T \textbf{E} \cdot d \textbf{l}##
##= \int_0^T -|E| r_0 \omega \cdot sin\theta \cdot sin(\omega \tau) - |E| r_0 \omega \cdot cos\theta \cdot cos(\omega \tau) \cdot d\tau ##
##= \int_0^T -|E| r_0 \omega \cdot [cos(\omega \tau) cos\theta + sin(\omega \tau) sin\theta] \cdot d\tau##
##= \int_0^T -|E| r_0 \omega \cdot cos(\omega \tau - \theta) \cdot d\tau##
##= -T \cdot |E| r_0 \omega < 0##

where use has been made of ##\theta = \omega \cdot \tau## at every point on the path and ##d\textbf{l} = dx \cdot \hat{\textbf{x}} + dy \cdot \hat{\textbf{y}} + dz \cdot \hat{\textbf{z}}##. I checked the calculation for several times but still got the same result. This is confusing me badly, is anyone willing to help?
 
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Do you use t both for time and as parameter for the solenoid shape? That is confusing.
 
mfb said:
Do you use t both for time and as parameter for the solenoid shape? That is confusing.

Sorry for that :( I've updated the notations
 
First, the path that you integrate over needs to be a closed path. This one is not.

Second, the surface over which you calculate the flux must be bounded by the loop. For a solenoid that is a very complicated surface, I am not at all sure how you would calculate that.

I would recommend simplifying a lot. Use a single flat loop of wire, and go from there.
 
DaleSpam said:
First, the path that you integrate over needs to be a closed path. This one is not.

Second, the surface over which you calculate the flux must be bounded by the loop. For a solenoid that is a very complicated surface, I am not at all sure how you would calculate that.

I would recommend simplifying a lot. Use a single flat loop of wire, and go from there.

@mfb gave me satisfying answers about a flat loop in this thread. I agree that the surface over which the flux is calculated is complicated thus when reasoning the direction of the inductive ##E## field I used Lenz's Law instead of Faraday's Law. This is a method I learned in high school and I think it's an approximation regarding that each turn of the solenoid is approximately parallel to the ##XY## plane, i.e. ##v## is small in ##z(\tau) = v \cdot \tau##.

If the math cannot be simplified for the solenoid, is there any other way to show that whether the voltage drops or increases from a to b along the solenoidal path?
 
If you have already done a flat loop then the easiest thing will be to consider a stack of several flat loops. Use the contour of one loop and the surface bounded by that loop.
 
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