VP Debate: A Battle of Words Between Edwards and Cheney

[kat]

Wasteof02- I believe (I really need to dbl check it but...) that those who heard Bush/Kerry on radio or only read the transcript rated Bush higher then Kerry. Hence the Bush won on content/Kerry won on style comments.

 

[Gokul43201]

Ithink this one goes to Cheney.
I can't believe Edwards brought up Cheney's gay daughter.

I don't think this was low at all. Edwards was showing respect for Cheney's stand on the issue. He wasn't trying to muscle anything out of this...

 

[Gokul43201]

Hence the Bush won on content

I find that quite surprising !

 

[Gokul43201]

Wow, I'm a fervent Kerry/Edwards supporter, but I don't see how 70+% of the people could think Edwards won, where it was a rare poll that showed John Kerry even doing that well.

wo2, this number started near 80% and has been dropping steadily to 70%...I think it will continue to drop for a while, as people listen to analysts/hear clips/read transcripts.

 

[wasteofo2]

Wasteof02- I believe (I really need to dbl check it but...) that those who heard Bush/Kerry on radio or only read the transcript rated Bush higher then Kerry. Hence the Bush won on content/Kerry won on style comments.

What do you think swayed people who read it or only heard it?

Was it the "Yeah, uhh, I uhh, you see, i... uhh, I'm doin' hard work, lotsa' people are workin' hard, it's uh... see, it's hard work workin' this hard to attain such a hard goal."? Was it the mindless repetition? Was it the failure to rebut any of Kerry's main points or defend Kerry's attacks on his own? All Bush said was that it was hard work, Kerry is inconsistant, he is consistent/strong, criticism is bad, Kerry is critical.

 

[Moonbear]

Wasteof02- I believe (I really need to dbl check it but...) that those who heard Bush/Kerry on radio or only read the transcript rated Bush higher then Kerry. Hence the Bush won on content/Kerry won on style comments.

I'm not buying that. I went back and read through the transcripts of that first debate to make sure I didn't miss anything of substance while distracted by the ums, and there really isn't anything there. At one point, Bush said something to the effect of (paraphrasing here), "I already explained that earlier" so I went to look through the responses to the previous questions to see if he indeed did answer the question in a previous response (I thought it likely since that first debate was very repetitive in terms of the questions asked). There was no such answer.

 

[Tigers2B1]

Among 140,000 voters (at last edit time) at joe.msnbc.com 76% say EDWARDS WON !

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/

That's a click as you go poll. Vote as much as you want - just wipe your cookies poll. Get your computer program to vote for you poll.

Considering, I'd say it's not a valid poll -

 

[Moonbear]

Wow, I'm a fervent Kerry/Edwards supporter, but I don't see how 70+% of the people could think Edwards won, where it was a rare poll that showed John Kerry even doing that well.

Kerry did much better than Bush in the deabte, and comparatively better than Edwards. Cheney did much better than Edwards in the debate, and comparatively better than Bush.

At least with the Democrats, the guy they want to be #1 is the guy who's the best. Wheras with the Republicans, Cheney clearly had a better handle on numbers, facts, small details, a wide range of issues, and was just a more coherent person/debater in general.

Does anyone really doubt that Cheney's really the head of ship?

I agree with your assessment. But we've always known this administration is just a ventriloquist act. That's why Bush can't speak when Cheney isn't present feeding him his lines. If Bush and Cheney traded places, I would be giving them much more serious consideration.

 

[kat]

Moonbear- As I mentioned, I need to check it out further (but who has the time?) I can't remember where i referenced it from and I watched it on the only channel we receive out here (CBS, NOT FOX as some like to suggest =P ). One thing that might skew the views of those who listen on radio might be a higher % of radio listeners could be...conservative. *shrug* I don't have the numbers to support it at this point, I just threw it out there as something I've read/seen/heard over the last few days.

 

[kawikdx225]

If Bush and Cheney traded places, I would be giving them much more serious consideration.

Even if they traded places their view on issues are the same. You imply that your vote is based upon surface impressions!

 

[Moonbear]

Moonbear- As I mentioned, I need to check it out further (but who has the time?) I can't remember where i referenced it from and I watched it on the only channel we receive out here (CBS, NOT FOX as some like to suggest =P ). One thing that might skew the views of those who listen on radio might be a higher % of radio listeners could be...conservative. *shrug* I don't have the numbers to support it at this point, I just threw it out there as something I've read/seen/heard over the last few days.

Fair enough. It's really easy for any given poll to be skewed one way or another based on the sampling methods, and in such a close race, I'm trying not to draw too many conclusions from polls since the margin of error usually exceeds the differences. Nov 2 is going to be a nail-biter of an evening watching the returns coming in. I'm thinking I should have a party to watch the returns...help survive the suspense!

 

[Moonbear]

Even if they traded places their view on issues are the same. You imply that your vote is based upon surface impressions!

Oh, I didn't mean it would sway my vote. I'm voting on my opinions about their views on the issues, but I do find it hard to take Bush seriously when he comes across so scatter-brained. I don't agree with Cheney's views on policy, but at least he shows leadership ability. Though, to some extent, when both candidates probably agree on at least 70% of the issues (I don't really know how much, I just made up that number, but it's really pretty high), one has to consider not just what someone wants to do, but whether they actually have the leadership skills to pull it off.

 

[wasteofo2]

I agree with your assessment. But we've always known this administration is just a ventriloquist act. That's why Bush can't speak when Cheney isn't present feeding him his lines. If Bush and Cheney traded places, I would be giving them much more serious consideration.

I dunno, regardless of their policies, if George Bush wasn't president and Dick Cheney was, would you really want George Bush as your VP? Or in any government position really? He's like a Dan Quayle but less eloquent.

 

[kat]

Did you pick up on Cheney's one big mistake?

 

[wasteofo2]

Did you pick up on Cheney's one big mistake?

The policies he was defending were all horrible failures.


I loved it when he was talking about how to deal with poverty, and started talking about creating jobs as the best solution, and that getting people working in good paying jobs is the bes way to combat poverty. Meanwhile, he's the leader of the first administration to lose jobs since the great depressoin, and the jobs they have created to make up for the ones they lost pay about $9,000 less than the new ones.

God, I'm so pissed at Edwards for letting so much important crap slide and focusing on stupid stuff the way he did...

 

[kat]

Oh please.
Cheney said " www.factcheck.com[/url] " instead of " [url]www.factcheck.org[/URL] "

 

[wasteofo2]

Oh please.
Cheney said " www.factcheck.com[/url] " instead of " [url]www.factcheck.org[/URL] "[/QUOTE]
I actually did catch that when he said it, but the fact that his administration has lost jobs, the first since the great depression, and that he then talked about creating jobs was way bigger in my mind. Call me crazy I guess...

 

[kat]

No, I'll call you young and inexperienced. As a small business owner, I appreciate the Bush/Cheney approach.

 

[Moonbear]

I dunno, regardless of their policies, if George Bush wasn't president and Dick Cheney was, would you really want George Bush as your VP? Or in any government position really? He's like a Dan Quayle but less eloquent.

Hmm...considering Cheney's health, that might be a big risk. If Bush wins, do you think there's any chance they'll have pretzels at the inaugural ball? (It's a joke!)

 

[Moonbear]

No, I'll call you young and inexperienced. As a small business owner, I appreciate the Bush/Cheney approach.

Which approach is that - hiring back previously laid-off employees for lower salaries, or not paying for their health insurance because it's so exhorbitantly expensive?

Seriously, what about their approach do you find appealing?

 

[kat]

I actually did catch that when he said it, but the fact that his administration has lost jobs, the first since the great depression, and that he then talked about creating jobs was way bigger in my mind. Call me crazy I guess...

BTW expect a large upward revision in whole years numbers in Fridays report. (October surprise?)

 

[Ivan Seeking]

and oil is $51 a barrel.

I can't call a winner. They both scored and they both had bad moments. Obvoiusly I liked what Edwards said more than I liked what Cheney said, but it was not nearly so much fun and the first debate.

 

[Tsu]

One of my favorite parts came immediately after the debate on NBC where Brian Williams ran a little segment called The Truth Squad. During the debate, they had people doing research on charges and countercharges made by either candidate - getting at the truth of the matter. This is what they ran first:

CHENEY: The Senator's got his facts wrong. I have not suggested there's a connection between Iraq and 911.

Then Brian Williams showed a seqment of an interview with Cheney on 9/14/03 on Meet the Press where this is said:

CHENEY: [regarding defining success in Iraq] We will have struck a major blow right at the heart of the (pause) of the base, if you will, (pause) the geographic base of the terrorists who have had us under assault now for many years, but most especially on 911.

He LIED?

 

[member 5645]

Cheney was an easy win over edwards last night. I really expected things to be much closer due to edward's years as a lawyer (should be a natural debater), but Cheney is simply a machine. The guy has a cool persona and something that Edwards really lacked last night...experience.

I don't know if it was enough to remove the awful image of Bush's dunce debate the other night...eessshh.

 

[member 5645]

Wow, I'm a fervent Kerry/Edwards supporter, but I don't see how 70+% of the people could think Edwards won, where it was a rare poll that showed John Kerry even doing that well.

At democraticunderground they were all discussing how they were spamming the internet pollls.
I'll pull the link later, but I've got school and work now.


oh, and:
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/Vote2004/vp_debate_poll_041006.html


see you guys later

 

[kat]

Seriously, what about their approach do you find appealing?

Seriously, that it's not Kerry's. http://www.sbsc.org/media/pdf/Kerrys_Voting_Record.pdf

 

[wasteofo2]

BTW expect a large upward revision in whole years numbers in Fridays report. (October surprise?)

Yeah, what a great october surprise that would be. I could just imagine Bush's triumphant anouncement

"John Kerry says we've lost over a million jobs, that's just liberal nosense, we've only lost HALF a million jobs, and it's hard work!"

 

[BobG]

Outstanding debate! This is what all debates should be like.

Cheney won, fairly decisively, but a good performance by both. I felt Edwards performed better than both Kerry and Bush. He did perform well enough that substance might wind up having more effect than style.

I definitely like Cheney. Maybe not for President or Vice President (I like Mean Joe Green of the Steelers, too, but the fans of any team that had him for quarterback would be understandably afraid), but I do like him as a person and a cabinet member (the idea of him being the most powerful man on Earth is a little scary). He won this just by the force of his character.

Edwards reminded everyone why they were so tempted to nominate him in spite of knowing little about him (specifically, if there was anything of substance beyond his "Two Americas" speech). He definitely has a good future regardless of how this election turns out.

For the political junkies who look beyond just the characters and already have an opinion about what's true and not true, the debate does little to change their opinion (personally, I think Cheney's performance goes down if you start comparing substance, but I already believe the Bush-Cheney administration has validated their level of incompetence).

For the more casual observer, the emphasis on the President-Vice President team policies helped Bush and Cheney (no lame comments about how the VP would pray for the future of the country if he were forced to take over the presidency). Cheney's performance gives the Bush-Cheney line more credibility. The real key to how much impact this has how many viewers there were. The VP debate attracts the political junkies, but how many undecided casual observers watched?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Cheney seems to have some real memory problems. He can't even remember Edwards introducing the President at at prayer breakfast at which Cheney and Edwards met. One of Cheney's biggest kill shots just bounced off Edwards and hit Cheney in the foot. I'd say Cheney's memory can't be trusted. He truly didn't remember. That's really not good. No wonder he can't keep his facts straight.

 

[Tsu]

What cracks me up (or does it just make me want to puke? hmmm... both, actually) is that Cheney sat RIGHT NEXT to Edwards during the breakfast!

But according to this site...
http://www.democrats.org/news/200410060007.html



They actually met on THREE different occasions. :