Water + Water Vapor - Can I use ideal gas law?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of the ideal gas law to a problem involving a sealed container of water and water vapor. Participants explore the implications of heating water from 25 degrees C to 150 degrees C while maintaining a saturated state and the associated pressure changes.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses uncertainty about using the ideal gas law, noting the need to account for different specific heats of water and water vapor and questioning whether to treat the system as two separate parts.
  • Another participant emphasizes the importance of the Pressure vs. Temperature curve for the phase transition between liquid and gas, suggesting this is the relevant relationship for the problem.
  • A different participant clarifies that saturated vapor is in equilibrium with the liquid phase, sharing that it has the same pressure and temperature.
  • One participant wonders if the ideal gas law can be applied at all, referencing course materials that discuss the ideal gas law and provide specific heat values for both phases of water, while also noting a professor's comment that water vapor is not an ideal gas.
  • Another participant recommends using a specific resource for saturation pressure, highlighting the non-linear dependence of pressure on temperature and its inconsistency with the ideal gas law.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the applicability of the ideal gas law in this scenario, with some arguing against its use and others questioning its limitations. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the best approach to solve the problem.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the complexity of the phase transition and the need to consider the saturated state of water, which may affect the pressure calculations. There is also mention of the non-ideal behavior of water vapor.

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Homework Statement



Sealed container which is used to heat 200 kg water is initially at 25 degrees C. Since the container is sealed, the water remains in saturated state while its temperature and pressure increases. The remaining volume of the container is filled with water vapor at the same temperature and pressure. There is a pressure safety valve on the container.

a) If the max allowed water temperature is 150 degrees C, at what pressure should the safety value open?
b) How much energy is needed to increase temperature of water from 25 degrees C to 150 degrees C? You can neglect mass of water vapor and assume closed system containing only 200 kg of water.


Homework Equations



PV = mRT where m = R/M (M = molar mass).

The Attempt at a Solution



I cannot find a definitive source which will confirm that I can use the ideal gas law on this problem. In addition, water vapor and water have different specific heats at a constant pressure and I must account for the total pressure within the system.

Do I need to split the system into two separate parts and calculate the pressure in each individual part as the temperature is raised? This doesn't seem logical to me -- the pressure valve needs to be set based on what the total pressure of the system will be...

Any advice? Just not sure how to attack this guy.
 
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No, there is a Pressure vs. Temperature curve for the phase transition liquid - gas. This is the relation you need.
 
Dickfore said:
No, there is a Pressure vs. Temperature curve for the phase transition liquid - gas. This is the relation you need.

The problem note that the water remains in a saturated state. I would assume this indicates it does not become a gas, is this correct?
 
Saturated vapor is vapor in equilibrium with the liquid phase underneath it. It has the same pressure and temperature.
 
Is it possible for the ideal gas law to be used in any way for this problem? I am simply surprised, because the core of the chapter which contains this problem discusses the ideal gas law and the book's tables provide Cp and Cv for both saturated water/steam in both liquid and vapor forms.

My own notes mention that the professor noted that water vapor is NOT an ideal gas, so I guess the book does not have a solid explanation of how to solve this problem.
 

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