What Are Photons? Effects of Electric Charges

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Photons are not constantly emitted from electric charges; rather, they are packets of energy that arise from electromagnetic (EM) waves interacting with matter. Photons represent discrete energy bursts, with their energy levels dependent on the wavelength of the EM wave, meaning shorter wavelengths correspond to higher energy. The electric field, while associated with charges, does not move in a conventional sense; instead, changes in the EM field propagate through space, carrying energy and information. The discussion clarifies that EM waves do not require a medium for propagation, contrasting with the analogy of water waves needing water. Overall, the relationship between electric fields and charges is complex, with fields existing independently of charges in certain theoretical contexts.
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Are photons the things which are constantly emitted from electric charges in all directions, which then interact with other electric charges, or are photons something else?

If photons are constantly emitted from electric charges in all directions, and photons are particles, as the ring of photons spreads out, wouldn't there be gaps in the ring of photons?
 
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Photons are not particles in any sense of the normal use of the word. Instead, they are little packets of energy that an EM wave interacts with matter via. This just means that when an EM wave (such as light, infrared radiation, radio waves, etc) interacts with matter, it doesn't give up energy continuously as we might expect, but does so in 'bursts'. The amount of energy in each photon depends on the wavelength of the EM wave. Shorter wavelength EM waves put more energy into each photon. For example, a photon of an EM wave with a wavelength of 700 nm (corresponding to red light) has half the energy that a photon of an EM wave with a wavelength of 350 nm (corresponding to the extreme violet end of the spectrum) has.

Photons are not constantly emitted from electrical charges. You've probably heard of this as a result of the popularization of 'virtual particles'. Virtual particles are a way of describing the interaction between objects in Quantum Field Theory (QFT). They are nothing like what you're thinking and bear little actual resemblance to what most 'pop-science' shows, books, and articles have portrayed them as. They certainly aren't emitted from electrically charged objects like you're imagining. I wouldn't worry about them.
 
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Well, electric field is constantly emitted from charges in all directions right? I was thinking that photons were the same thing as electric field.
 
123987 said:
Well, electric field is constantly emitted from charges in all directions right? I was thinking that photons were the same thing as electric field.

We say the electric field is 'emitted' from the charge, but there isn't anything actually moving. A 'field' is a way of describing how things interact. For an electric field, we can point to any location in space and label it with values for the direction and magnitude of the field. The direction of the field is simply the direction a charged particle would be accelerated in if we placed it at that point, and the magnitude is how strong the force is. It happens to be a fact that the closer you are to an electrically charged particle, the stronger the field is. That's why we say that the field is 'emitted' from the charge.
 
Drakkith said:
We say the electric field is 'emitted' from the charge, but there isn't anything actually moving.
But electric fields are emitted, and do actually move through space at the speed of light. If electric fields did not travel through space then information transfer would be instantaneous, but it is not.
 
You are thinking of electromagnetic waves. The fields do not move in any meaningful sense, but changes in the EM field do propagate and carry information and energy.
 
DaleSpam said:
The fields do not move in any meaningful sense, but changes in the EM field do propagate and carry information and energy.
So you're saying that EM field exists independent of charge? I thought EM field is emitted by charge. I thought that you can't have EM field without charge.
 
123987 said:
So you're saying that EM field exists independent of charge? I thought EM field is emitted by charge. I thought that you can't have EM field without charge.

In reality we can never encounter a situation where there are charges without a field, or a field without charges. Saying that the field is 'emitted' by the charges is mostly because of how the initial EM theory was developed back in the 1800's. It's one of those things that just sticks around. Usually it helps people understand and visualize what's going on, but not always.
 
Light is an oscillating EM field, and light travels through space.

Are you saying that EM field is a dimension like space, it exists everywhere, and light is just a disturbance in the EM field, the same way that gravity is a disturbance of space?
 
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  • #10
123987 said:
Light is an oscillating EM field, and light travels through space.

Are you saying that EM field is a dimension like space, it exists everywhere, and light is just a disturbance in the EM field, the same way that gravity is a disturbance of space?
You appear to be having a problem with an apparent conflict between EM waves traveling and EM Fields not traveling (?). Take an analogy with waves on a lake. The water doesn't travel about the lake but the surface waves (variations of height and displacement ) do travel. If there is a change in water level (=Field), this step change will take time to propagate over the surface but then, no more wave until you introduce another change. There is pretty much a direct correspondence with the EM situation.
 
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  • #11
123987 said:
So you're saying that EM field exists independent of charge?
I never said such a thing. What I would say is that there are solutions to Maxwell's equations which describe EM fields without any charge or current. These are called vacuum solutions and include plane waves.

123987 said:
I thought EM field is emitted by charge. I thought that you can't have EM field without charge.
There are vacuum solutions to Maxwell's equations in classical EM and there are photon-only Fock states in QED. In both theories you can have EM fields without charge.
 
  • #12
A Photon is basically a particle that represents a quantum of light or electromagnetic radiation.
 
  • #13
123987 said:
Are you saying that EM field is a dimension like space, it exists everywhere, and light is just a disturbance in the EM field, the same way that gravity is a disturbance of space?

No, I don't know how you got that out of anything that's been said in the thread.
 
  • #14
Drakkith said:
No, I don't know how you got that out of anything that's been said in the thread.
Yes, it reminds me of this exchange between the troll and the king and queen.

 
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  • #15
123987 said:
So you're saying that EM field exists independent of charge? I thought EM field is emitted by charge. I thought that you can't have EM field without charge.
Don't forget that the 'originating, accelerating charge' could be hundreds of millions of light years away from the oscillating fields that you observe as they arrive at Earth. How relevant is the connection that you say, exists if the wave was generated a short time after the big bang?
 
  • #16
Drakkith said:
No, I don't know how you got that out of anything that's been said in the thread.
You said that EM field does not travel, only changes in EM field travel.

Then sophiecentaur said that EM waves travel through space the same way that water waves travel through water.

Okay, I understand how water waves propagate through water. A wave needs a medium to propagate through. What medium does EM wave propagate through? The only way I can make sense of this information is if EM field exists everywhere independent of charge, not created or emitted by charge, and EM waves propagate through the EM field, the same as water waves propagate through water.

To clarify, I don't believe the above paragraph is correct, the above paragraph is me trying to make sense of the information that EM field doesn't travel through space.

I think that EM field does travel through space, and is constantly emitted by electric charge.
 
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  • #17
123987 said:
A wave needs a medium to propagate through. What medium does EM wave propagate through? The only way I can make sense of this information is if EM field exists everywhere independent of charge, not created or emitted by charge, and EM waves propagate through the EM field, the same as water waves propagate through water.
Waves don't need a medium, but otherwise this is essentially correct. The only caveat is that the value of the field can be 0 in some locations.
 
  • #18
DaleSpam said:
Waves don't need a medium...,

did you really mean to say EM waves don't need a medium ?
 
  • #19
123987 said:
Then sophiecentaur said that EM waves travel through space the same way that water waves travel through water.
That was, as I stated, an analogy and nothing to do with the existence or not of a medium. It is the disturbance (energy) that moves from place to place and nothing else.
davenn said:
did you really mean to say EM waves don't need a medium ?
What's wrong with that? I thought the existence of an aether was not part of current Physics.
 
  • #20
sophiecentaur said:
What's wrong with that? I thought the existence of an aether was not part of current Physics.

you misunderstand ... no one is talking about the existence of aether ... no need to bring it up ;)

well waves in water were also being spoken of and in that has a medium
the way dalespam worded it may have confused the OP even more since he was already having problems with the basic concepts ;)
I just wanted it clarified for the OP's sake

Dave
 
  • #21
sophiecentaur said:
That was, as I stated, an analogy and nothing to do with the existence or not of a medium. It is the disturbance (energy) that moves from place to place and nothing else.
Imagine a vacuum with one electron in it. Now imagine a second electron magically pops into existence some distance from the first electron. Are the electrons instantaneously repelled from each other, or does the electric field have to travel through space at the speed of light?

Pretend that both electrons are at absolute zero, there are no EM waves, only non-oscillating electric field.
 
  • #22
We are singing from the same hymn sheet then. :)
 
  • #23
123987 said:
Now imagine a second electron magically pops into existence
We cannot use science to answer a question whose premise is based on magic, especially magic which is designed to violate a key law like the conservation of charge.
 
  • #24
123987 said:
Imagine a vacuum with one electron in it. Now imagine a second electron magically pops into existence some distance from the first electron.

DaleSpam said:
We cannot use science to answer a question whose premise is based on magic, especially magic which is designed to violate a key law like the conservation of charge.

To elaborate on Dalespam's post, were aren't just giving you a hard time about this. We don't live in a universe where charges and fields have existed separately or where we can create charges from nothing, violating several conservation laws, so we cannot trust that what we think would happen is actually accurate.
 
  • #25
Drakkith said:
we cannot trust that what we think would happen is actually accurate.
Yes we can because what you think will happen is informed by experiments backed up by evidence.
 
  • #26
123987 said:
Yes we can because what you think will happen is informed by experiments backed up by evidence.

Not in a case of magically appearing electrons it's not.
 
  • #27
123987 said:
Imagine a vacuum with one electron in it. Now imagine a second electron magically pops into existence some distance from the first electron. Are the electrons instantaneously repelled from each other, or does the electric field have to travel through space at the speed of light?

Pretend that both electrons are at absolute zero, there are no EM waves, only non-oscillating electric field.

Instead of coming up with an impossible situation, you could consider a realistic situation. You have two electrons and one is moved from one position to another. This is a similar question to what you posted, but it still respects the continuity equation of EM fields. In this case the disturbance in the field will propagate at the speed of light (my recollection is that there are some unexpected things that can happen under particular constraints, but E&M wasn't my strongest area of physics). The field is always there, but the magnitudes and directions of the field change in time.

It might be better to discuss something like this that doesn't break any physical laws, but still gets at some of your questions.
 
  • #28
DrewD said:
Instead of coming up with an impossible situation, you could consider a realistic situation. You have two electrons and one is moved from one position to another. This is a similar question to what you posted, but it still respects the continuity equation of EM fields. In this case the disturbance in the field will propagate at the speed of light (my recollection is that there are some unexpected things that can happen under particular constraints, but E&M wasn't my strongest area of physics). The field is always there, but the magnitudes and directions of the field change in time.

It might be better to discuss something like this that doesn't break any physical laws, but still gets at some of your questions.
Yeah I was trying to think of a better situation, but i got distracted and did something else.

Your situation works. Imagine two electrons in a vacuum, they are being repelled by each other, then one electron is moved to a new position. Is the other electron instantly repelled away from the new position? The answer is no it isn't, because the EM field has to travel through space at the speed of light. It isn't EM waves which are traveling, it's the EM field itself.
 
  • #29
Again, the field does not have a velocity.

Look at Maxwell's equations. No velocity.
 
  • #30
DaleSpam said:
Again, the field does not have a velocity.

Look at Maxwell's equations. No velocity.
Then why are the electrons not instantly repelled?
 
  • #31
123987 said:
Then why are the electrons not instantly repelled?

What do you mean 'instantly'? They've always been in an electric field. As they approach each other the force between them increases because of the electric field between them. There is nothing moving here except the particles.
 
  • #32
Drakkith said:
What do you mean 'instantly'? They've always been in an electric field. As they approach each other the force between them increases because of the electric field between them. There is nothing moving here except the particles.
Two electrons in a vacuum, electron 1 and electron 2. They are repelling each other. Electron 1 is moved to a new position. Is electron 2 instantly repelled from the new position of electron 1? Or does it take some time before electron 2 is repelled from the new position?
 
  • #33
X0gfP.png

In this picture it takes some time for the EM field to affect things from the new position. The EM field has to travel through space.
 
  • #34
123987 said:
In this picture it takes some time for the EM field to affect things from the new position. The EM field has to travel through space.

If I'm understanding that diagram right, the charge was moving to the left and was then accelerated to the right. The change in the field is an EM wave and moves at c.
 
  • #35
123987 said:
Then why are the electrons not instantly repelled?
Because Maxwell's equations say that they won't. All without attributing velocity run the speed.
 
  • #36
123987 said:
The EM field has to travel through space.

The disturbance in the EM field travels. There is always a field, but the equipotentials "move" at the speed of light. The way that you are thinking about it may be conceptually useful to you, but I don't think there is any real benefit and it doesn't play out well in the math.
 
  • #37
123987 said:
Two electrons in a vacuum, electron 1 and electron 2. They are repelling each other. Electron 1 is moved to a new position. Is electron 2 instantly repelled from the new position of electron 1? Or does it take some time before electron 2 is repelled from the new position?

This example is unclear and you're skipping what happens to the electron during the time that it's moved from point A to point B. Both electrons are constantly under an electric force and are accelerating, so it's not easy (for me) to say what happens.
 
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  • #38
DrewD said:
The way that you are thinking about it may be conceptually useful to you, but I don't think there is any real benefit and it doesn't play out well in the math.
So how do you think about the EM field? In your mind is it everywhere, exists independent of charge and is warped by charge, like how space-time is warped by mass to cause gravity?
 
  • #39
123987 said:
Are photons the things which are constantly emitted from electric charges in all directions, which then interact with other electric charges, or are photons something else?

If photons are constantly emitted from electric charges in all directions, and photons are particles, as the ring of photons spreads out, wouldn't there be gaps in the ring of photons?

All of Drakkith's replies are correct. You can trust him.

Physics theories are successful to the extent that they accurately predict a diversity of observed phenomena, and if they are not falsified by other observations. Classical E&M was mostly successful in the 19th century, predicting what had to that time been observed. E&M fields and waves were invented to enable the application of certain mathematics, e.g., the divergence theorem, that made prediction easier.

Theory is convenient, but data is sacred.

The photoelectric effect was studied subsequently. This effect is the emission of electrons (i.e., negative charges) from surfaces of solids when they are illuminated by light. If light behaved like an E&M wave (i.e., carrying energy continuously along its path), then electrons would be emitted only after enough time had passed after the start of illumination for the light to deliver enough energy to the solid's surface. But, what was observed was that electrons were emitted immediately. And, it was inferred that light energy propagated in globs. These globs were named photons.

Thinking about photons, forget the concepts: particles; E&M fields, and E&M waves. From the point of view of contemporary physics these concepts are in a sense archaic. Photons are best described as waves, but not E&M waves. They are best described by the wave solutions of the Schrödinger wave equation.
 
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  • #40
@Drakkith
Joel A. Levitt said:
All of Drakkith's replies are correct. You can trust him.

Print that out and stick it on your shaving mirror. Read it every morning and 'preen yourself'. :)
 
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  • #41
123987 said:
Then why are the electrons not instantly repelled?
I feel that underlying the OP question (at least in part) is the philosopher's discomfort with action at a distance.
The physicists caught up with that when they invented 'gauge' theories. In the modern view, space is not empty, but filled with a seething collection of virtual particles that continuously pop in and out of existence. In this view, forces that seem to act at a distance are mediated by interactions among virtual particles.
Virtual photons are the particles (yes, particles, but of no rest mass) which mediate the electric and magnetic fields. Hence, any alteration at the source of a field propagates at light speed.
Fields mediated by particles with nonzero rest mass propagate more slowly.
 
  • #42
Right now, this is what I'm thinking. First, what do we mean by 'traveling' and 'accelerating'? This brings us back to the concept of inertial reference frames and the relativity of motion. (Wasn't Einstein's first paper on special relativity titled "On the electrodynamics of moving bodies", or some such? ) Suppose you and an electric charge are in a reference frame within which the charge is not moving. If you are close enough to the charge, you could measure the strength of an electric field around the particle with an electrometer or some such. You could measure the distance dependence of the strength and direction of the force exerted by that field on a test charge. As expected, the force will fall off as the inverse square of the distance, and the direction of the force will be either towards or away from the charge, i.e. the force behaves like a vector, with magnitude and direction. Mathematically speaking, there is what's called a 'vector potential' - a mathematical function that assigns a vector to every point in space. But that field can't extend to the edge of the universe unless it sat there immobile in your frame since the beginning of time. If it hasn't, then there will be an edge to that field, a moving boundary (again in your reference frame). Another measuring instrument located beyond this boundary will detect something like a tsunami, an abrupt increase in the electric field that remains constant after the event. In other words, it will have detected a wave (sort of).

Now let the charge in your laboratory begin moving. Both the distance and direction of the charge w.r.t. (with respect to) your lab instruments will change and eventually the same thing will be detected in any reference frame anywhere ( as long as it isn't traveling together with the charge, the case if the charge is constant w.r.t. that other frame.) as a wave-front passing over the instruments. Your moving charge has just created a wave in your lab. That wave will then propagate throughout space. Until it reaches other detectors, however, the 'old' field will be measured there, with the same vector field as before. But the charge that created it is no longer at its center, i.e. the field out there is no longer in step with the charge in your lab and in this sense, it exists without the charge that created it, since that charge is no longer 'there'! Suppose now the charge in question moves sinusoidally. The perturbation in the electric field too will oscillate sinusoidally. Your instruments will have detected an EM wave, and as such this oscillating field will spread throughout space and eventually be detected in all reference frames out there as a classical EM wave.

What I have just said is wrong. Why? I called a purely electric field perturbation an EM wave. What about the 'M' in EM? I have omitted a very important pair of concepts here: acceleration and magnetism. Maxwell's field equations show that when electric charges move they create magnetic fields, and vice versa. Furthermore, when charges accelerate, perturbations of their associated magnetic fields propagate in tandem with the perturbations of their electric fields. Hence, we have a true EM wave. I never studied Maxwell's equations and special relativity, so I'm slipping into waters over my head, so I'll stop except to say that this has been a purely classical explanation. It doesn't take into account quantum effects, i.e. those photons, or relativity which shows that EM radiation doesn't travel as a nice centrosymmetric wave. This is important in understanding synchrotron particle accelerators, where particles traveling in circles close to the speed of light constantly emit x rays concentrated in the instantaneous direction of the particles. The accelerator must constantly replenish the lost energy and add even more if it wants to accelerate the particles even further. Furthermore, the intense, focused beam of x-rays is useful in its own right, for experiments involving materials structure analysis, and so forth.

There's also an important difference between EM and gravity fields. Gravity fields and waves carry only one force, gravity, not 2 as in EM waves. I imagine this was a bete noir in Einstein's later days, when he was trying to create a field theory that would unify EM and gravity.
 
  • #43
EM waves are disturbances in electric and magnetic fields. Those fields exist in a vacuum. They need no 'medium' to exist, so why would changes in the strength and direction of those fields require a 'medium' like the aether? BTW, I don't like the positing of unseen undetectable entities of any kind in order to explain something. Besides the aether, there was the 'phlogiston' theory of heat 'flow' - an invisible, weightless fluid that flows from one body to another and causes the receptacle of this mysterious substance flow to increase in temperature. Shown to be BS a long time ago, but the idea still hangs on in our lazy habit of talking about heat 'flow'. The most recent version, according to my amateur opinion, is dark matter. There it is, it's invisible, it barely interacts with anything, so we can't exactly expect to verify its existence by direct observation. It's woo woo and don't like it.
 
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  • #45
The basis of the OP's error was thinking of an Electric Field vector as "moving" along the vector direction, rather than "pointing" in that direction.
This is perhaps due to ambiguous phrases such as "Electric Field goes from positive to negative", which can still be found even in textbooks.
This common mis-conception starts because the gravity field "g" is introduced as an acceleration (of what?), rather than a vector Field intensity
(it will be prevalent until we purge textbooks of that treatment ... good luck with that - I've been trying for 25 years!)
The "light model" which treats it as a bunch of "photon particles" whose Energies depend on wavelength, is much less satisfying (in many reader's minds) because it seems to ignore the Electric and Magnetic aspects of the light, which had been used all thru optics to derive Snell's Law (for example) and the Poynting vector's Energy Intensity, and to explain refractive index. If (point-to-point) "least time" is used to derive Snell, there is no inference that the Huygens (Displacement current?) wavefront has ANY transverse extent!
Interesting that nobody has mentioned that in this thread yet, since the OP's original question was whether gaps occur between photons at large distances from the source. A more complete presentation of a photon model would include calculating the number of wavelengths in a photon
(several thousand, using dE/dt or dB/dt estimates for simple natural transitions),
and explaining how each photon's self-trapping will limit its transverse spread (thereby setting a minimum E-field intensity even from distant stars).
 
  • #46
haruspex said:
I feel that underlying the OP question (at least in part) is the philosopher's discomfort with action at a distance.
The physicists caught up with that when they invented 'gauge' theories. In the modern view, space is not empty, but filled with a seething collection of virtual particles that continuously pop in and out of existence. In this view, forces that seem to act at a distance are mediated by interactions among virtual particles.
Virtual photons are the particles (yes, particles, but of no rest mass) which mediate the electric and magnetic fields. Hence, any alteration at the source of a field propagates at light speed.
Fields mediated by particles with nonzero rest mass propagate more slowly.

What does 'OP' mean? 'Optical Physics'?
 
  • #47
Mark Harder said:
What does 'OP' mean? 'Optical Physics'?

OP means Original Poster. AKA the person who started the thread.
 
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