What Are the Advantages of Using SVG for Web Design?

[faust9]

Why?

I have IE, Firefox, Netscape and Opera installed (to test my webpages).
IE has more functions, better usability, and many of my special effects and scripts are not understood by browsers such as firefox, meaning extra coding so these browsers do not misinterpret them.

When other browsers catch up and look and feel less chunky and childlike then maybe...

Then try coding to web standards and cross browser problems will be minimized to the point of almost non-existant. IE(Internet Explorer) is a bug ridden virus waiting to happen. And tabbed browsing is infinetly more productive than non-tabbed. Imagine a page with multiple links---say a uC site with 18 versions of the same chip. Hold the apple key(I'm a mac user so you can take the MS-specific non-standard HTML and stick it where the sun doesn't shine) and click through all of the variations. Hold down apple+option and arrow through each of the open tabs---easy and quicker than opening links in different windows(organization wise) and much much quicker than using forward and backward history.

Now, please tell me(us) how firefox is behind IE? Well FF is well behind the virus curve but other than that how is it inferior? Tell me how Camino is less 'clunky' than IE on windows... You can't.

 

[hitssquad]

Window stack navigation - just as fluent with or without tabs

tabbed browsing is infinetly more productive than non-tabbed. Imagine a page with multiple links---say a uC site with 18 versions of the same chip. Hold the apple key(I'm a mac user so you can take the MS-specific non-standard HTML and stick it where the sun doesn't shine) and click through all of the variations. Hold down apple+option and arrow through each of the open tabs---easy and quicker than opening links in different windows(organization wise) and much much quicker than using forward and backward history.

Using a non-tabbed browser doesn't mean you have to use only the forward backward history. You can do what you described without tabs. To open links in new windows on PC running IE, click while holding the shift key down. Alt-Tab goes back to the original page, even while that page is loading. Then you can shift-click another link, and so on. Once you have 40 windows open, you can flip through them with Alt-Tab (goes to the previous windows(s) visited) and with Shift-Alt-Tab (goes the opposite direction of Alt-Tab in your windows stack.

In short, both systems (tab browsing and non-tab browsing) use windows stacks. Both let you flip through them at ultra-high-speed with key-combinations. Both give you information about the pages in your stack (with IE, when you activate window stack navigation (Alt-Tab, lift up the Tab key but hold down the Alt key) the target window is described, and also has a distinctive icon for different programs (the window stack navigator for IE functions with all running applications, so I can be browsing the web and instantly switch back and forth between that and my encyclopedia program, my unabridged dictionary, Mathematica, Google Earth, Widows Media Player, Opera (for viewing flash web pages), calculator, text editor windows, file folder windows, iTunes, GIMP, Excel, etc., in addition to usually over 40 web pages all surfed simultaneously and all on one XGA monitor)).

I have tried tabs and they do not increase the functionality of my window stack navigation. People have watched me multi-task on PC computers running IE and their eyes pop out of their heads. They say, "What was *that*? How did you *do* that?" The only thing tabs do is waste space and distract me.

 

[JamesU]

So, someone replied to the poll with "other." What "other" browser is out there? Will whoever clicked that one speak up and share?

well it sucks, but there's AOL

and nobody posted in the AOL ca thread...

 

[mattmns]

Using a non-tabbed browser doesn't mean you have to use only the forward backward history. You can do what you described without tabs. To open links in new windows on PC running IE, click while holding the shift key down. Alt-Tab goes back to the original page, even while that page is loading. Then you can shift-click another link, and so on. Once you have 40 windows open, you can flip through them with Alt-Tab (goes to the previous windows(s) visited) and with Shift-Alt-Tab (goes the opposite direction of Alt-Tab in your windows stack.

In short, both systems (tab browsing and non-tab browsing) use windows stacks. Both let you flip through them at ultra-high-speed with key-combinations. Both give you information about the pages in your stack (with IE, when you activate window stack navigation (Alt-Tab, lift up the Tab key but hold down the Alt key) the target window is described, and also has a distinctive icon for different programs (the window stack navigator for IE functions with all running applications, so I can be browsing the web and instantly switch back and forth between that and my encyclopedia program, my unabridged dictionary, Mathematica, Google Earth, Widows Media Player, Opera (for viewing flash web pages), calculator, text editor windows, file folder windows, iTunes, GIMP, Excel, etc., in addition to usually over 40 web pages all surfed simultaneously and all on one XGA monitor)).

I have tried tabs and they do not increase the functionality of my window stack navigation. People have watched me multi-task on PC computers running IE and their eyes pop out of their heads. They say, "What was *that*? How did you *do* that?" The only thing tabs do is waste space and distract me.

Well you are one of the few I would say. Personally I do not even like touching my keyboard while browsing. And if I were to use the taskbar with IE, I would have to click twice just to get to a new page. Personally I use rocker mouse gestures on firefox as this allows me to quickly scroll through tabs, and if I am lazy I just move the mouse and click the tab I want.

 

[hitssquad]

And if I were to use the taskbar with IE, I would have to click twice just to get to a new page.

...To another window.

Personally I use rocker mouse gestures on firefox as this allows me to quickly scroll through tabs

Does it automatically re-order your window stack according to most-recently visited windows? IE does.

 

[dduardo]

Does it automatically re-order your window stack according to most-recently visited windows? IE does.

That would be total chaos if the tabs started rearanging themselves. I expect a pariticular page to be in a particular tab which is in a particular position on the screen.

 

[Monique]

Conclusion: everyone has their own preferance. I back hitsquad, I'm a keyboard user and like to alt+tab through last active windows.

 

[hypermorphism]

Somehow, I see IE7 still not supporting alpha-transparency in PNGs and properly functioning SVG/CSS/DOM implementations. Back to dumbing down web design to stay compatible with IE.

 

[hitssquad]

That would be total chaos if the tabs started rearanging themselves.

I like that. It has a nice ring to it:

"Hitssquad: Master of Total Chaos."

http://gizmos-world.de/gizmo/Micha2.jpg

 

[dduardo]

Well, you could install the lastTab extension to give you the last active tab switching ability:

http://timothyhumphrey.name/firefox/

Instead of alt+tab its ctrl+tab

Monique, you might appreciate this extension:

http://biobar.mozdev.org/

 

[hypermorphism]

I have IE, Firefox, Netscape and Opera installed (to test my webpages).
IE has more functions, better usability, and many of my special effects and scripts are not understood by browsers such as firefox, meaning extra coding so these browsers do not misinterpret them.

This is the same way I feel about IE. I code elegant standard ECMAscript and DOM scripting, and IE either goes belly-up by not supporting some standard object, or interprets some command in an utterly non-standard death-defying way, so that I end up having to trudge through MSDN's DHTML library to find IE's utterly proprietary object/implementation in their proprietary "Jscript" format and try to fork the code by detecting supported objects (as browser detection is unreliable). In many cases, IE sees errors in lines it shouldn't even be reading by standard protocol, so you eventually end up having to lobotomize the best parts of your code to get a functioning cross-browser script. Even if you don't have to do this, you still end up with a longer script whose only excuse is support for IE.

 

[mattmns]

No Hitsquad it does not rearange the tabs. However, you can set it up so that when you are cylcing through tabs that you go in the order of last visited, and vice-versa.

edit... Wow was I slow, dduardo beat me to it.

 

[hitssquad]

Dduardo, Mattmns:

Yes. That's what I meant. Re-order the visited-window stack yet not necessarily re-order the spatial arrangement of the tabs.
So, the answer to the question is "Yes. You can do it with a certain plug-in."

 

[dduardo]

Why?

I have IE, Firefox, Netscape and Opera installed (to test my webpages).
IE has more functions, better usability, and many of my special effects and scripts are not understood by browsers such as firefox, meaning extra coding so these browsers do not misinterpret them.

When other browsers catch up and look and feel less chunky and childlike then maybe...

1) You obviously have never used firefox's DOM Inspector, Javascript Console, Web Developer Extension, and the HTML Editor (Based on Tidy) extension. They are indispensable tools for creating websites.

2) I've had to redesign web interfaces to avoid, as hypermorphism so elequently said: lobotomizing my code, just because IE is so crippled.

 

[Monique]

2) I've had to redesign web interfaces to avoid, as hypermorphism so elequently said: lobotomizing my code, just because IE is so crippled.

So how many extensions do you have to download and install in FF in order for the fancy websites to work? The standard browser does not look spectacular to me.

Thanks for the Biobar, I actually had already found it myself there's also a BioFox sidebar.

So, how do I get FF to ask me what I want to do with a file I want to download (open, save, save and open folder, save and launch). Do I need to extension OpenDownload or is it already built in?

 

[mattmns]

tools-> options -> downloads

Or wait til you download that file and it will ask you.

 

[dduardo]

So how many extensions do you have to download and install in FF in order for the fancy websites to work? The standard browser does not look spectacular to me.

I don't need any extensions to view fancy websites. I only add extensions to enhance the user interface or allow me to manipulate webpages as I see fit. IE is not nearly as developer friendly as Firefox.

So, how do I get FF to ask me what I want to do with a file I want to download (open, save, save and open folder, save and launch). Do I need to extension OpenDownload or is it already built in?

That's already built in. I also don't see IE with a nice download manager.

 

[Monique]

That's already built in. I also don't see IE with a nice download manager.

Actually I find it annoying. First I have to browse through all my directories to save into the right folder (it doesn't remember the last locations and I don't want to save in a single place). Then when it has saved it, I have to go to Windows Explorer and find the file again to launch or unpack it

 

[dduardo]

Actually I find it annoying. First I have to browse through all my directories to save into the right folder (it doesn't remember the last locations and I don't want to save in a single place). Then when it has saved it, I have to go to Windows Explorer and find the file again to launch or unpack it

1) Firefox remembers where I last put my files. Maybe it's a windows thing. Someone else would have to confirm this.
2) If you elected to just download the file, once the file is finished downloading there will be a link to open the file in the download manager.

 

[Monique]

2) If you elected to just download the file, once the file is finished downloading there will be a link to open the file in the download manager.

Nope, not even with the opendownload extension. I get a little popup window in the bottom right that the download has finished, the downloads window is empty and I'm off to find the file.

 

[mattmns]

Uninstall that extension. I am on windows (xp) right now and I see an "Open" link next to the file I downloaded.

Here is the screenshot.

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/8878/downloadopen5wu.th.png

Press ctrl+j to open the download manager. (or Tools -> Downloads).

 

[hypermorphism]

So how many extensions do you have to download and install in FF in order for the fancy websites to work? The standard browser does not look spectacular to me.

Non-standard does not correspond to fancy. Besides, if I encounter such a site, I just use IEView to open it in IE. No need to download tons of extensions to support outdated design. ActiveX isn't exactly something I'd introduce to my Firefox either.

So, how do I get FF to ask me what I want to do with a file I want to download (open, save, save and open folder, save and launch). Do I need to extension OpenDownload or is it already built in?

Firefox by default asks you whether you want to Save a file to [default folder] or Open with ["Browse..." or default program]. To change the Save a file to... to a dialogue, you can go to Tools>Options>Downloads>Ask me where to save every file. "Save and Launch" is not an option I've seen before, but using Firefox's download manager window will allow you to open the saved file with one additional click.

 

[Monique]

Uninstall that extension. I am on windows (xp) right now and I see an "Open" link next to the file I downloaded.

Here is the screenshot.

http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/8878/downloadopen5wu.th.png

Press ctrl+j to open the download manager. (or Tools -> Downloads).

That looks really nice, but it is not what I get. Without the extension I get this:

http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/4583/downloads2st.jpg

 

[gerben]

You probably changed the setting at Tools->Options->Privacy->Download-manager-history
to "Remove files from the Download Manager: Upon successful download".

The standard settings is:
"Remove files from the Download Manager: Manually"
and the standard behaviour is that the links to the donwloaded files are only removed when you press "Clean Up".

 

[Monique]

You are right, shame on me

 

[*Kia*]

Then try coding to web standards and cross browser problems will be minimized to the point of almost non-existant. IE(Internet Explorer) is a bug ridden virus waiting to happen. And tabbed browsing is infinetly more productive than non-tabbed. Imagine a page with multiple links---say a uC site with 18 versions of the same chip. Hold the apple key(I'm a mac user so you can take the MS-specific non-standard HTML and stick it where the sun doesn't shine) and click through all of the variations. Hold down apple+option and arrow through each of the open tabs---easy and quicker than opening links in different windows(organization wise) and much much quicker than using forward and backward history.

Now, please tell me(us) how firefox is behind IE? Well FF is well behind the virus curve but other than that how is it inferior? Tell me how Camino is less 'clunky' than IE on windows... You can't.

Quite simply I don't like it, they are all chunky and childlike with bold colours big buttons and I'm sorry but tabbed browsing is not nice.

Oh and my coding... is of web standards hence the extra coding for those browsers that misinterpret basic scripting (which IE does not misinterpret), oh Yeah and I verify with W3C, so if your browser can't support basic web standard coding - not my problem

 

[*Kia*]

Using a non-tabbed browser doesn't mean you have to use only the forward backward history. You can do what you described without tabs. To open links in new windows on PC running IE, click while holding the shift key down.

Hold about - mine opens links in new windows anyway - it's a user preference

 

[*Kia*]

Well you are one of the few I would say. Personally I do not even like touching my keyboard while browsing. And if I were to use the taskbar with IE, I would have to click twice just to get to a new page. Personally I use rocker mouse gestures on firefox as this allows me to quickly scroll through tabs, and if I am lazy I just move the mouse and click the tab I want.

You need a PROPER mouse.
I only single click (again user prefs), I do not have to move my mouse to the back or forward buttons (because they are on my mouse), links open in new windows and it is only a single click to open any window of choosing

 

[*Kia*]

1) You obviously have never used firefox's DOM Inspector, Javascript Console, Web Developer Extension, and the HTML Editor (Based on Tidy) extension. They are indispensable tools for creating websites.

2) I've had to redesign web interfaces to avoid, as hypermorphism so elequently said: lobotomizing my code, just because IE is so crippled.

Why people want to use Javascript is beyond me.
most browsers DON'T support it and the end user can turn it off.
You have to have extra coding to support those browsers so that the code dengenerates "nicely".

Sure javascript can do some niecy nicey special effects but why bother when most users can't benefit?

If you want your users to see something it should all be done server side.

I don't use a HTML editor or any thing like frontpage or dreamweaver.
I code from the ground up.

 

[*Kia*]

Actually I find it annoying. First I have to browse through all my directories to save into the right folder (it doesn't remember the last locations and I don't want to save in a single place). Then when it has saved it, I have to go to Windows Explorer and find the file again to launch or unpack it

No, you don't, you can get it to do it there and then.
Oh and in Firefox - the lack of option to OPEN ugh - the only thing you can do is save to disk - very often I don't want to save to disk.

Default locations can be set via user prefs.

 

[hypermorphism]

... Personally I've never ever encountered any SVG. ... Again, 99% of people will never run into xforms outside Office, it is along way from being used on websites.

These aren't really arguments for or against relatively new technologies. Why would anyone ever need a light bulb with no infrastructure to support it ?

 

[dduardo]

Why people want to use Javascript is beyond me.
most browsers DON'T support it and the end user can turn it off.
You have to have extra coding to support those browsers so that the code dengenerates "nicely".

Sure javascript can do some niecy nicey special effects but why bother when most users can't benefit?

If you want your users to see something it should all be done server side.

I don't use a HTML editor or any thing like frontpage or dreamweaver.
I code from the ground up.

Javascript is vital in AJAX applications. Have you ever used google maps? Perhaps you have a gmail account? If you go to big ecommerce site you'll see javascript being used. Go to amazon and look at the source. It's pretty ubiquitous.

... Personally I've never ever encountered any SVG. ...

When I design websites I do my mockups in SVG using Inkscape. I can stretch, rotate or maniplute whatever aspects of the layout without affecting gradients, rounded corners, etc. After mockup I take the svg and export to png for slicing in The Gimp. Once I have sliced all the images I write the appropriate css/html to represent the layout based on the mockups.

I would love to go from mockups in SVG straight to final layout in SVG.