News What are the Key Factors for Victory in the 2008 Presidential Election?

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The discussion centers on the electoral significance of Hispanic and Black voters in the upcoming Obama-McCain election, highlighting that New Mexico's 5 electoral votes may not be pivotal despite its Hispanic population. Eligible Hispanic voters total approximately 17 million, while Black voters are around 24 million, compared to 151 million White voters, indicating a demographic imbalance. Concerns are raised about the potential impact of a Hispanic vice-presidential candidate for Obama, with opinions divided on whether it would significantly sway Hispanic votes. The conversation also touches on the importance of the vice-presidential picks for both candidates, especially considering McCain's age and the historical context of racial tensions surrounding Obama. Overall, the thread emphasizes the need for informed discussions about voter demographics and electoral strategies as the election approaches.

Who will win the General Election?

  • Obama by over 15 Electoral Votes

    Votes: 16 50.0%
  • Obama by under 15 Electoral Votes

    Votes: 6 18.8%
  • McCain by over 15 Electoral Votes

    Votes: 4 12.5%
  • McCain by under 15 Electoral Votes

    Votes: 6 18.8%

  • Total voters
    32
  • #401
If there is a tie in the electoral college there is a scenario under which we could end up with a President Pelosi on January 20, 2009

http://www.npr.org/blogs/politics/2008/10/what_happens_if_mccain_and_oba.html
 
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  • #402
Technically, the Electoral Colllege could vote for any eligible US citizen - even one not on the ballot.
 
  • #403
Ivan Seeking said:
It violates the essential conservative philosophy [the one that caused all of this] and offends the core of his base.
If you care to demonstrate in any detail at all how conservative philosophy 'caused' all this I'm willing to listen.
 
  • #404
I have already made that point. It is the battle cry of economic conservative ideologs, and crooks: deregulation. Face it: The Republicans have had unfettered control and they destroyed the economy. Done. They have failed.

Obama is up by 49-43 in the CNN poll of polls today.
 
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  • #405
Ivan Seeking said:
I have already made that point. It is the battle cry of economic conservative ideologs, and crooks: deregulation. Face it: The Republicans have destroyed the economy. Done. They have failed..
The people who claim to be conservatives these days have no appreciation for conservatism. Conservatives do not make risky short-term investments or start wars for no reason, nor do they put US taxpayers on the hook for the purpose of enriching their handlers. The so-called "conservatives" of today are acolytes of the neo-cons who are no more than robber-barons, engineering transfers of wealth from the lower class and middle class to the upper class. I am and have been a fiscal conservative (and a social conservative in some areas - ask Astronuc about my beliefs around marriage and fidelity!) all my life, and the Republican party is increasingly driving me away. I have always voted for the better candidate all my voting-age life, and for the first time, I am contemplating voting a straight Democratic/Independent ticket to send a signal to the Republican party.
 
  • #406
turbo-1 said:
The people who claim to be conservatives these days have no appreciation for conservatism. Conservatives do not make risk short-term investments or start wars for no reason, nor do they put US taxpayers on the hook for the purpose of enriching their handlers. The so-called "conservatives" of today are acolytes of the neo-cons who are no more than robber-barons, engineering transfers of wealth from the lower class and middle class to the upper class.

As you know, we completely agree.

But I think there is a more essential failure here: Free-market itself has failed because of the "too big to be allowed to fail" reality. So profits are privatized and risk is nationalized. But we already have that thread.

One interesting idea that I heard in this regard: Too big to fail should mean too big to exist.

The only thing saving our butts is that the rest of the world has the same problem: The US is too big to be allowed to fail.
 
  • #407
Ivan Seeking said:
The only thing saving our butts is that the rest of the world has the same problem: The US is too big to be allowed to fail.
I wish I shared this hope. Foreign countries have invested a LOT of money in our economy, but are we too big to be allowed to fail? If India and China have other attractive places to put money, why shouldn't they do so? I'm not talking about a decisive crash, but a re-direction of investments over the medium-term that will benefit financial markets that are not locked into maximizing quarterly profits. Just a thought.

Edit: if the US market is seen as too volatile or too dependent on exotic derivatives, investors from countries with longer "time for return" philosophies may turn to investments that are less volatile, but offering returns appropriate to their domestic growth.
 
  • #408
Ivan Seeking said:
I have already made that point. It is the battle cry of economic conservative ideologs, and crooks: deregulation.
Ivan, you have repeatedly asserted the like as a given. Its clear you lay substantial blame with those that have been in charge simply because they had responsibility, whatever the cause. Fine. But I have not seen any argument from you, nor any cited sources, that demonstrate even roughly how, or which, 'conservative' inspired deregulation caused systemic mortgage securities defaults.
 
  • #409
I think we may need to clearly define who or what a conservative is.

I think terms like 'liberal' and 'conservative' have been co-opted to the point of being meaningless, and that some so-called conservatives are really faux-conservatives.


Does conservative mean - marked by moderation or caution or prudence? If so, the lack of regulation is not conservative. The reckless (speculation) in the markets is not conservative. The issuance of sub-prime and fraudulent loans is not conservative. Excessive compensation of CEOs is not conservative.

I see Warren Buffet as being conservative.

Or does conservative mean "good 'ol boys", such that as long as it's not explicitly illegal then anything goes.
 
  • #410
mheslep said:
Ivan, you have repeatedly asserted the like as a given. Its clear you lay substantial blame with those that have been in charge simply because they had responsibility, whatever the cause. Fine. But I have not seen any argument from you, nor any cited sources, that demonstrate even roughly how, or which, 'conservative' inspired deregulation caused systemic mortgage securities defaults.

Here's one source. Frankly, I have a hard time understanding why I even have to defend the point. This issue goes waaaaaay back. But beyond that, it is a fundamental failure of the free-market model. That we need a bailout is the proof. There is no such thing in a free market. And deregulation is a cornerstone of the Republican philosophy. It always has been. But never again can the argument be made that we operate in a free market; or that more deregulation necessarily leads to a stronger economy. The liberals will always be able to point to 2008 as the death of that Republican claim.
http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/article.cfm?articleid=1993

I also posted a link to a great, top-tier panel discussion, on This Week, in which Robert Reich and others discuss this issue.
 
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  • #411
Ivan Seeking said:
But never again can the argument be made that we operate in a free market; ...

Good fences make good neighbors.
 
  • #412
Ivan Seeking said:
Here's one source. Frankly, I have a hard time understanding why I even have to defend the point. This issue goes waaaaaay back. But beyond that, it is a fundamental failure of the free-market model. That we need a bailout is the proof. There is no such thing in a free market. And deregulation is a cornerstone of the Republican philosophy. It always has been. But never again can the argument be made that we operate in a free market; or that more deregulation necessarily leads to a stronger economy. The liberals will always be able to point to 2008 as the death of that Republican claim.
http://knowledge.wharton.upenn.edu/a...articleid=1993
The Wharton interview is interesting, I'll get back to it later, but it is clearly disconnected from these statements above.

To assert that the free market failed, one has to show that there was one active in the first place, or at least to what extent. The only conclusion I can draw so far from your posts is that anywhere excess, corruption, thievery (or Republicans) exist then one by definition has a 'free-market'.

If one takes the trouble to try an qualify 'free' in the housing market it's inescapable that it is far from lassie-faire. Housing is massively subsidized and directed by US and local governments. The largest single holder of mortgages in the United States was the quasi government organizations(GSEs/FHA), with five trillion dollars of holdings, and these organizations created the securitizations as mentioned in the interview. There is the primary residence mortgage deduction. Then the innumerable direct housing laws and acts, valuable or not, are undeniably government attempts to implement social policy by controlling the market: Community Reinvestment Act of 1977, Fair Housing Act, local Rent Control laws, Tax Payer Relief 1997 (bumped the capital gains deduction on residences to $500k). Indirectly, as a consequence of banking law, regulators have strong influence on bankers regarding with who and where they lend.

Also, to what Republican deregulation are you referring? Sarbannes Oxley? McCain-Feingold? Deregulation is perhaps a cornerstone for libertarians like Ron Paul, its hardly so for Republicans like Michael Oxley (Sarbannes-Oxley 2002 and Fannie Mae groupie) and many others.
 
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  • #413
Ivan Seeking said:
As you know, we completely agree.

But I think there is a more essential failure here: Free-market itself has failed because of the "too big to be allowed to fail" reality. So profits are privatized and risk is nationalized. But we already have that thread.

One interesting idea that I heard in this regard: Too big to fail should mean too big to exist.

The only thing saving our butts is that the rest of the world has the same problem: The US is too big to be allowed to fail.

The world doesn't want us to "fail" in a final sense...but they would like to buy us cheap.

Remember the Japanese acquisitions in the 80's...they just paid too much...not enough cash flow to cover debt service.

Oil rich countries and China have hard CASH...and we want/need it.

On a lighter side, we're a great place to dump cheap products, we love gas guzzlers and we seem to really like high interest consumer loans...it's a great fit...we're so compatible with those guys.
 
  • #414
Politico reports that Michigan Republicans are furious at John McCain's decision this week to abandon the state, which at one point had been considered one of his best prospects among the states that John Kerry won in 2004:
http://www.time-blog.com/swampland/2008/10/mccain_and_michigan.html

And even Sarah Palin is questioning McCain's strategy! :smile:
For the second day in a row, Sarah Palin expressed her dismay at the campaign's decision to pull out of Michigan. This time, though, she brought up the move unprompted (!)

Palin may be only expressing her honest views on the situation, but by continuining to talk about the state she continues to give legs to a negative storyline and ensure additional days of coverage on the worst kind of process-oriented matter at this stage of the race:


Meanwhile - McCain's campaign is planning to go progressively negative in the final 4 weeks of the campaign. Remember - this is an example of how McCain will be as president.
 
  • #415
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1846269,00.html
In the past two weeks, as the financial crisis has developed, I've been traveling in Europe and Asia, talking to business leaders, bankers and academics. It has been a sobering experience. I can't remember a time when so many were so disturbed by what was happening in the U.S., or so worried about what the next few months might hold. Even in China, the post-Olympics, post-spacewalk euphoria has been tempered by the appreciation that the contraction of the U.S. market for its exports will put one of the key drivers of China's economic growth into neutral.

Everywhere, I've faced questions about what's going on in the U.S.: about who will win the presidential election and what he will do when he takes office; about why the House of Representatives voted down the financial rescue package; and about whether U.S. leaders have the combination of skill and guts to get to the far side of the crisis. What I've not found, anywhere, is schadenfreude, a sense of glee at America's misfortune. Things are too serious for that. But there is a palpable sense that the financial crisis, and Washington's stumbling reaction to it, represents a defining moment. The days when the U.S. could lecture other nations on the correct way to run their affairs are gone. The British philosopher John Gray put the case at its starkest in the Observer: "The era of American global leadership, reaching back to the Second World War," Gray wrote, "is over."
 
  • #416
One quality in Obama gaining attention is his ability to remain calm and collected during a crisis; so much so that this actually scared some of Obama's advisors; not only during the campaign, but also when the credit crisis hit - some feared that he may be too calm and too cool. There was a sense that almost to a fault, "nothing gets this guy excited". But now this serves Obama well.

We saw during the credit crisis how McCain reacted excessively, impulsively, and erratically, if not recklessly. While pouncing on Obama for not speaking quickly enough, McCain made rash statements - announced who he would fire - suspended his campaign, rushed back to Washington, only to be repudiated by his own party. Obama acted steadily and resolutely. While gaining praise from even Wall Street Conservatives, Obama avoided political grandstanding, allowed the experts to do their jobs, and then stepped in when he could be the most help. And in the end he was needed to sway the Black Caucus and other Democrats in the House for support of the bailout bill, which he did.

In short, Obama showed great leadership and reserve during a time of extreme crisis. And while an old war dog like McCain has the advantage on issues of military matters, there is an overreaching trust factor to be considered. Who can be trusted to act rationally when the nation’s future hangs in the balance - to remain calm, and not to act on emotion during a crisis? Who can be trusted to lead, and not stampede? Who can steer the ship of State through treacherous waters with a firm and steady hand?

In 2002, when it was widely perceived as unpatriotic to question Bush and his frivolous claims, Obama warned us that we were a nation rushing to a needless war. We have seen over the last two weeks that, once again, Obama is the one with a steady hand and an eye to the horizon. It was he, not McCain, who showed great skill as a leader. It was Obama, not McCain, who acted thoughtfully, instead of reacting wildly and unpredictably. And others are beginning to notice this quality of leadership in Obama - even Wall Street Conservatives.
 
  • #417
Obama clinches on Rove map
http://news.yahoo.com/s/politico/20081005/pl_politico/14294
Rove writes on Rove.com: “39 new state polls released in the first three days of October have given Barack Obama his first lead over the magic number of 270 since mid-July. Minnesota (10 EV) and New Hampshire (4 EV) both moved from toss-up to Obama, giving him 273 electoral votes to McCain’s 163, with 102 votes remaining as a toss-up.

“If the election were held today, Obama would win every state John Kerry won in 2004, while adding New Mexico (5 EV), Iowa (7 EV), and Colorado (9 EV) to his coalition. Remember, though, that these state polls are a lagging indicator and most do not include any surveying done after the vice-presidential debate on Thursday night.”
I would like to see less negative ads from Obama's campaign. Instead, he and the campaign ought to focus on the issues (the two top being US economy and national security) and leave the negative campaigning to McCain/Palin.
 
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  • #418
As of today, the cnn poll of polls still has Obama by 49-43. So there doesn't seem to be any change after the VP debate.

The remaining significantly contested States are very close, but many are favoring Obama who now has a ceiling of 345 to 193 on the electoral map. If he can just hold, or a gain a point or two in each of those States, this could be a landslide on the electoral map by up to almost 2:1.

So McCain is going to get really nasty now. This election is hardening on a trajectory highly unfavorable to McCain. He is running out of even potential paths to victory.
 
  • #419
Ivan Seeking said:
As of today, the cnn poll of polls still has Obama by 49-43. So there doesn't seem to be any change after the VP debate.

The remaining significantly contested States are very close, but many are favoring Obama who now has a ceiling of 345 to 193 on the electoral map. If he can just hold, or a gain a point or two in each of those States, this could be a landslide on the electoral map by up to almost 2:1.

So McCain is going to get really nasty now. This election is hardening on a trajectory highly unfavorable to McCain. He is running out of even potential paths to victory.

Unfortunately for the Republicans the more negative he goes the greater the downdraft and the longer the Obama coattails.
 
  • #420
Ivan Seeking said:
As of today, the cnn poll of polls still has Obama by 49-43. So there doesn't seem to be any change after the VP debate.

Gallup showing it 50% Obama - 43% McCain
 
  • #421
mheslep said:
To assert that the free market failed, one has to show that there was one active in the first place, or at least to what extent. The only conclusion I can draw so far from your posts is that anywhere excess, corruption, thievery (or Republicans) exist then one by definition has a 'free-market'.

Right. I'm sure that if banks were told "Do whatever you want." they would have suddenly stopped those bad practices and become good honest businesses.
 
  • #422
This is an interesting analysis of Palin and McCain by Frank Rich.
Pitbull Palin Mauls McCain
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/05/opinion/05rich.html
SARAH PALIN’S post-Couric/Fey comeback at last week’s vice presidential debate was a turning point in the campaign. But if she “won,” as her indulgent partisans and press claque would have it, the loser was not Joe Biden. It was her running mate. With a month to go, the 2008 election is now an Obama-Palin race — about “the future,” as Palin kept saying Thursday night — and the only person who doesn’t seem to know it is Mr. Past, poor old John McCain.

To understand the meaning of Palin’s “victory,” it must be seen in the context of two ominous developments that directly preceded it. Just hours before the debate began, the McCain campaign pulled out of Michigan. That state is ground zero for the collapsed Main Street economy and for so-called Reagan Democrats, those white working-class voters who keep being told by the right that Barack Obama is a Muslim who hung with bomb-throwing radicals during his childhood in the late 1960s.

McCain surrendered Michigan despite having outspent his opponent on television advertising and despite Obama’s twin local handicaps, an unpopular Democratic governor and a felonious, now former, black Democratic Detroit mayor. If McCain can’t make it there, can he make it anywhere in the Rust Belt?

Not without an economic message. McCain’s most persistent attempt, his self-righteous crusade against earmarks, collapsed with his poll numbers. Next to a $700 billion bailout package, his incessant promise to eliminate all Washington pork — by comparison, a puny grand total of $16.5 billion in the 2008 federal budget — doesn’t bring home the bacon. Nor can McCain reconcile his I-will-veto-government-waste mantra with his support, however tardy, of the bailout bill. That bill’s $150 billion in fresh pork includes a boondoggle inserted by the Congressman Don Young, an Alaskan Republican no less.
. . . .
That was then. Now McCain is looking increasingly shaky, whether he’s repeating his “Miss Congeniality” joke twice in the same debate or speaking from notecards even when reciting a line for (literally) the 17th time (“The fundamentals of our economy are strong”) or repeatedly confusing proper nouns that begin with S (Sunni, Shia, Sudan, Somalia, Spain). McCain’s “dismaying temperament,” as George Will labeled it, only thickens the concerns. His kamikaze mission into Washington during the bailout crisis seemed crazed. His seething, hostile debate countenance — a replay of Al Gore’s sarcastic sighing in 2000 — didn’t make the deferential Obama look weak (as many Democrats feared) but elevated him into looking like the sole presidential grown-up.
. . . .
In the last of her Couric interview installments on Thursday, Palin was asked which vice president had most impressed her, and after paying tribute to Geraldine Ferraro, she chose “George Bush Sr.” Her criterion: she most admires vice presidents “who have gone on to the presidency.” Hours later, at the debate, she offered a discordant contrast to Biden when asked by Gwen Ifill how they would each govern “if the worst happened” and the president died in office. After Biden spoke of somber continuity, Palin was weirdly flip and chipper, eager to say that as a “maverick” she’d go her own way.

But the debate’s most telling passage arrived when Biden welled up in recounting his days as a single father after his first wife and one of his children were killed in a car crash. Palin’s perky response — she immediately started selling McCain as a “consummate maverick” again — was as emotionally disconnected as Michael Dukakis’s notoriously cerebral answer to the hypothetical 1988 debate question about his wife being “raped and murdered.” If, as some feel, Obama is cool, Palin is ice cold. She didn’t even acknowledge Biden’s devastating personal history.
. . . .
It seems Palin is very eager to move into the Whitehouse, as if she is expecting/anticipating McCain would not to complete his term.
 
  • #423
Astronuc said:
This is an interesting analysis of Palin and McCain by Frank Rich.
Pitbull Palin Mauls McCain
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/05/opinion/05rich.html
It seems Palin is very eager to move into the Whitehouse, as if she is expecting/anticipating McCain would not to complete his term.

That certainly is in line with my thinking. Basically Palin looked to advance herself and not McCain. And she didn't do that really at all, so much as salvage her chippy failing campaign from cratering right there on stage at Washington University.

As it is I think her descent has merely been slowed to let her last just another 30 days before trundling off back to Wasilla to take care of her family and try to think up ways to salvage her flagging reputation in Alaska.
 
  • #424
Does everyone else have a cable channel devoted to Obama 24 hours a day...I'm not making a commentary about CNN...I mean the Obama channel...#73 on my Direct TV system...I live in Ohio.
 
  • #425
Nope. Golly gee willickers, [wink wink], I get my news from God. He talks to mavericks like me directly.
 
  • #426
WhoWee said:
Does everyone else have a cable channel devoted to Obama 24 hours a day...I'm not making a commentary about CNN...I mean the Obama channel...#73 on my Direct TV system...I live in Ohio.
That's a bit too much!
 
  • #427
WhoWee said:
Does everyone else have a cable channel devoted to Obama 24 hours a day...I'm not making a commentary about CNN...I mean the Obama channel...#73 on my Direct TV system...I live in Ohio.

The only dedicated 24/7 political infomercial station in my area is Fox.

Besides I thought ESPN HD was 73.
 
  • #428
I thought this was a good retort:
"If we are going to go down this road, you know, Barack Obama was eight years old, somehow responsible for Bill Ayers," he said. "At 58, John McCain was associating with Charles Keating."
http://www.salon.com/wires/ap/2008/10/05/D93KH8282_obama/index.html
 
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  • #429
Ivan Seeking said:
Nope. Golly gee willickers, [wink wink], I get my news from God. He talks to mavericks like me directly.

I took the family out for lunch yesterday to a local restaurant...and everyone was talking politics.

Some of the people quoted what they heard from the Obama channel as gospel...which caused me to watch...for a few minutes.

I'm not joking...Obama bought all of the programming slots on a local access channel...24/7 Obama infomercials.
 
  • #430
October 5, 2008
Economic Unrest Shifts Electoral Battlegrounds
By ADAM NAGOURNEY and JEFF ZELENY
The turmoil on Wall Street and the weakening economy are changing the contours of the presidential campaign map, giving new force to Senator Barack Obama’s ambitious strategy to make incursions into Republican territory, while leading Senator John McCain to scale back his efforts to capture Democratic states.

Mr. Obama has what both sides describe as serious efforts under way in at least nine states that voted for President Bush in 2004, including some that neither side thought would be on the table this close to Election Day. In a visible sign of the breadth of Mr. Obama’s aspirations, he is using North Carolina — a state that Mr. Bush won by 13 percentage points in 2004, and where Mr. Obama is now spending heavily on advertisements — as his base to prepare this weekend for the debate on Tuesday.

By contrast, Mr. McCain is vigorously competing in just four states where Democrats won in 2004: Pennsylvania and New Hampshire, followed by Wisconsin and Minnesota. His decision last week to pull out of Michigan reflected in part the challenge that the declining economy has created for Republicans, given that they have held the White House for the last eight years.

But Mr. McCain’s abrupt decision, which caught many members of his own party by surprise, also underlined the tactical political squeeze he finds himself in: by using his fund-raising advantage to compete in so many places, Mr. Obama has forced Mr. McCain to spend money to hold on in what had been viewed as safe Republican states, like Indiana and Missouri, while limiting Mr. McCain’s ability to play offense on Democratic turf.

Mr. Obama now has a solid lead in states that account for 189 electoral votes, and he is well positioned in states representing 71 more electoral votes, for a total of 260, according to a tally by The New York Times, based on polls and interviews with officials from both campaigns and outside analysts. It takes 270 electoral votes to win the presidency.

Mr. McCain has solid leads in states with 160 electoral votes and is well positioned in states with another 40 electoral votes, according to the Times tally, for a total of 200. Just six states representing 78 electoral votes — Colorado, Florida, Nevada, New Hampshire, Ohio and Virginia — are tossups.

http://elections.nytimes.com/2008/president/whos-ahead/key-states/map.html
http://www.politico.com/convention/swingstate.html
 
  • #431


The separation is blowing up ... but it's close to hitting saturation from the Obama side (just as it approached saturation from the McCain side some 3 weeks ago).

Electoral maps (Obama/McCain):
Code:
                     AGGREGATES OF CURRENT POLLS                 |     PROJECTIONS
                                                                 |
Date      RCP1     RCP2     CNN   Elec-Vote  USAtlas-A  Pollster | Elec-Proj  USAtlas-P   
                                                                      
06/21   238/163  289/249  211/194  317/194    271/191            |  349/189    298/240
06/26   238/163  317/221  211/194  317/194    288/180            |  338/200    298/240 
07/01   238/163  304/234  231/194  317/221    268/180            |  338/200    293/245 
07/06   238/163  304/234  231/194  320/218    268/177            |  338/200    293/245
07/11   238/163  304/234  231/194  320/215    268/188            |  306/232    293/245
07/16   255/163  304/234  231/194  320/204    268/177            |  311/227    293/245
07/21   255/163  322/216  231/194  312/199    268/172   293/214  |  298/240    293/245
07/26   238/163  322/216  221/189  292/195    264/175   284/147  |  338/200    298/240
08/11   238/163  322/216  221/189  289/236    264/202   284/157  |  298/240    293/245
08/21   228/174  264/274  221/189  264/261    264/210   260/191  |  264/274    293/245
08/26   228/174  273/265  221/189  273/252    259/210   260/176  |  273/265    293/245
09/06   238/174  273/265  243/189  301/224    259/194   260/179  |  278/260    293/245                                                                           
09/16   207/227  286/252  233/189  247/257    216/246   243/219  |  273/265    273/265
09/26   228/163  286/252  240/200  286/252    264/185   229/174  |  273/265    273/265
10/01   249/163  348/190  250/189  286/190    264/185   250/174  |  273/265    273/265 
10/06   264/163  353/185  250/189  329/194    316/174   260/163  |  364/174    273/265

This is showing all the signs of a metastable bubble. I wouldn't be surprised if it goes through a bit of a deflation over the next few days, but I believe it'll take something pretty big to swing the pendulum the other way.
 
  • #432
WhoWee said:
I'm not joking...Obama bought all of the programming slots on a local access channel...24/7 Obama infomercials.

You mean as opposed to having Fox run 24/7 for the last how many years now?

Have you caught the really vicious Hannity's America hour long "Special Report" that tries to paint Obama as tied to black extremists, Central American Communists, the Weather Underground of course, Mortgage fraud, Voter Fraud and every Radical and Racist point in between? They have been airing a financial crisis report that attempts to portray McCain as doing nothing but support regulation and oversight while they fail to mention his unethical intercessions in the regulatory process for his pal Charles Keating. Not to mention his life-long support from the banking lobby as he pushed for the low level of oversight we are now reaping the rewards of. As if that isn't enough they blame Barney Frank and Chris Dodd for everything now - even though Republicans have been in the driver's seat this past decade?

If McCain were a product or a prescription drug for sale, the FCC or the FDA or the FTC would likely have shut down their dedicated Right Wing infomercial, that gives no disclaimer, a long time ago. But not under Bush I can only note.
 
  • #434
Trends in some of the key states over the last month - see attachment.

Source: pollster.com
 

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  • #435
Gokul43201 said:
Trends in some of the key states over the last month - see attachment.

Source: pollster.com

Wow! But I'm still holding my breath for the next 29 days.

I think the best interpretation of the "Obama the terrorist" strategy comes from Republican strategist Mike Murphy: Obama will take a hit, short term, but in a week or two, the impact will be insignificant. If we had nothing more important to worry about, then this might get traction, but the fundamentals - the economy, the price of gas, jobs, retirement investments, the price of milk, the value of homes, fear - are controlling the discussion. You can't spin these into a debate about gay marriage, or flag burning, or who knew whom, and when, for long.

Voter registration is ending in many States.

Worth a watch
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=1903805#post1903805
 
  • #436
Ivan Seeking said:
Wow! But I'm still holding my breath for the next 29 days.

I think the best interpretation of the "Obama the terrorist" strategy comes from Republican strategist Mike Murphy: Obama will take a hit, short term, but in a week or two, the impact will be insignificant. If we had nothing more important to worry about, then this might get traction, but the fundamentals - the economy, the price of gas, jobs, retirement investments, the price of milk, the value of homes, fear - are controlling the discussion. You can't spin these into a debate about gay marriage, or flag burning, or who knew whom, and when, for long.
You left out reduced veterans benefits and health care, care of the Republican-controlled congress and Bush administration, who want to save money, and give tax breaks to the wealthy.

Bottom line - if you don't want to pay for a war, don't start one!


Warning on cuts in veterans' health care
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/351170_veterans14.html?source=mypi
Senators oppose Bush proposal
By JENNIFER A. DLOUHY, HEARST NEWSPAPERS
WASHINGTON -- Democratic senators warned Wednesday that a Bush administration proposal to cut VA medical center construction funding and boost prescription drug co-payments would be devastating to former service members.

Sen. Patty Murray, D-Wash., said the proposals -- part of the Bush administration's budget request for fiscal 2009 -- "would close the VA's door to thousands of our nation's veterans."

Murray's comments came during a hearing of the Senate Veterans Affairs Committee, which was reviewing President Bush's requested budget.

Bush has asked Congress to spend $93.7 billion on veterans -- $3.4 billion more than the current fiscal year. The extra money includes higher spending on the health care of veterans returning from war in Iraq and Afghanistan. The Department of Veterans Affairs anticipates treating 333,000 veterans from the current conflicts in fiscal 2009 -- 40,000 more than expected this year.

Bush would pay for some of the increase by slashing in half the spending on VA construction projects -- from $1.1 billion this year to $587 million in fiscal 2009.

At least two projects at the VA Puget Sound Health Care System in the Seattle area would lose funding under Bush's plan -- a $43 million project to make a nursing building meet current seismic standards and the construction of a mental health services building, which carries a price tag of $178 million.

McCain Myth Buster Day 3: John McCain and Veterans' Health Care
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS183681+15-Feb-2008+PRN20080215
WASHINGTON, Feb. 15 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- After casting himself as a
"Maverick" in 2000, the new John McCain is walking in lockstep with President
Bush, pandering to the right wing of the Republican Party, and embracing the
ideology he once denounced. On the campaign trail McCain has callously
abandoned many of his previously held positions, even contradicted himself, in
a blatant attempt to remake himself into a candidate Republicans can accept in
2008. So just who is the real John McCain? The Democratic National Committee
will present a daily fact aimed at exposing the man behind the myth.

Today's McCain Myth: John McCain can be trusted to stand up for veterans and
military families.

Throughout this campaign, John McCain has relied on the support of fellow
veterans and promised to make veterans' health care his "top domestic
priority." [Associated Press, 12/12/07] In reality, John McCain has
consistently put his campaign ahead of veterans and military families by
pandering to the right wing of his Party on tax cuts.

Faced with a choice between joining Democrats in trying to increase funding
for veterans and military families by eliminating some of President Bush's tax
cuts for the wealthy, John McCain chose to cozy up to conservatives by
preserving the tax cuts he once opposed. Putting his campaign ahead of our
veterans, McCain voted against Democratic efforts to improve care at veterans'
hospitals, provide mental health services to soldiers with post-traumatic
stress disorder and substance abuse problems, and prevent veterans and
military families from paying higher fees and co-payments for medical
services.
 
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  • #437
McCain will pay for his Healthcare with 1.3 TRILLION cut in Medicare.

Bye-bye Florida 27 electoral college votes.
WSJ said:
* OCTOBER 6, 2008
McCain Plans Federal Health Cuts
Medicare, Medicaid Spending Would Be Reduced to Offset Proposed Tax Credit
By LAURA MECKLER

John McCain would pay for his health plan with major reductions to Medicare and Medicaid, a top aide said, in a move that independent analysts estimate could result in cuts of $1.3 trillion over 10 years to the government programs.

The Republican presidential nominee has said little about the proposed cuts, but they are needed to keep his health-care plan "budget neutral," as he has promised. The McCain campaign hasn't given a specific figure for the cuts, but didn't dispute the analysts' estimate.
 
  • #438
WallStreetJournal said:
John McCain would pay for his health plan with major reductions to Medicare and Medicaid, a top aide said, in a move that independent analysts estimate could result in cuts of $1.3 trillion over 10 years to the government programs.

It was Lyndon Johnson who said that Medicare is always just one generation away from extinction. We don't pass it to our children in the bloodstream; we have to fight for it and protect it, and then hand it to them so that they shall do the same, or we're going to find ourselves spending our sunset years telling our children and our children's children about a time in America, back in the day, when men and women once were provided the healthcare that they had paid for over their working lives.
 
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  • #439
Astronuc said:
...McCain Myth Buster Day 3: John McCain and Veterans' Health Care
http://www.reuters.com/article/pressRelease/idUS183681+15-Feb-2008+PRN20080215

Bottom of that:
...Paid for and authorized by the Democratic National Committee,
www.democrats.org.

This communication is not authorized by any candidate or candidate's
committee.


SOURCE Democratic National Committee

Damien LaVera of the Democratic National Committee, +1-202-863-8148
Am I missing something? What's a DNC press release doing verbatim in a Reuters byline?
 
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  • #440
Astronuc said:
Bottom line - if you don't want to pay for a war, don't start one!
Or a social security entitlement, or a medicare entitlement, or a ...
 
  • #441
LowlyPion said:
McCain will pay for his Healthcare with 1.3 TRILLION cut in Medicare.

Bye-bye Florida 27 electoral college votes.
Bye-bye for who? Obama?
http://sec.online.wsj.com/article/SB122315505846605217.html?mod=article-outset-box
WSJ said:
...Sen. Obama also would rely on some Medicare savings to pay for his health-care plan, which would offer subsidies to help consumers pay for premiums. The Tax Policy Center estimates that his plan would cost $1.6 trillion over 10 years and cover 34 million more people.
That is TRILLION for the lower case impaired.

Meanwhile, in the same piece:
...Mr. Holtz-Eakin said the campaign never intended to apply the payroll tax to health benefits. That means that most people would see a net tax cut, contrary to Sen. Obama's assertions. Only those with very rich benefits packages are likely to see a net increase in taxes. But it also means that Sen. McCain must fill a huge budget hole -- which the campaign says will come from cuts to Medicare and Medicaid.

The nonpartisan Tax Policy Center, a Washington think tank, estimates that the McCain plan would cost the government $1.3 trillion over 10 years. The plan would allow as many as five million more people to have insurance, it estimates.

Mr. Holtz-Eakin said the plan is accurately described as budget neutral because it assumes enough savings in Medicare and Medicaid spending to make up the difference. He said the savings would come from eliminating Medicare fraud and by reforming payment policies to lower the overall cost of care.
Ruthless bastard.
 
  • #442
mheslep said:
Meanwhile, in the same piece:
"He said the savings would come from eliminating Medicare fraud and by reforming payment policies to lower the overall cost of care."​
Ruthless bastard.

There's that much fraud and inefficiency in the system after 8 years of Bush?

It really is time for a change.
 
  • #443
mheslep said:
Bottom of that:

Am I missing something?
Evidence to the contrary?
What's a DNC press release doing verbatim in a Reuters byline?
Reuters should do their own independent investigation.


Meanwhile - The Budget According to McCain: Part I
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/the_budget_according_to_mccain_part_i.html

With earmarks out as a potential source of savings, McCain hasn't said what he'd cut out of the discretionary budget to get to $100 billion. He's even indicated that defense spending might increase. If defense spending is off the table, saving $100 billion would require 18.5 percent across-the-board cuts in every other discretionary program, including things like elementary and secondary education, veterans' health benefits and highway construction. The alternative would be severe cuts in a few programs, as yet unnamed.
Education should be done at the state and local level. It makes no sense to send tax money to Washington only to have it returned minus the bureacratic overhead. The federal government should establish national standards so that every child in the US is receiving comparable education, which is clearly not the case, nor has it ever been (and that is simply wrong!).

We have poorly designed and constructed highways that lead to lots of wasted energy and reduced productivity. That needs to change.
 
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  • #444
Astronuc said:
Education should be done at the state and local level.
...
The federal government should establish national standards so that every child in the US is receiving comparable education,
Aren't those two statements in conflict? I'm totally for a federally set standard, so local districts can't decide that creationism and snake-oil alchemy be part of their curricula. But then, that does take control away from the local and state levels, doesn't it?
 
  • #445
McCain hits Obama for associating with a Chicago professor who was a radical in the 1960's. The AP is reporting that McCain joined a group that provided covert support to right-wing death squads in Central America

McCain's ties are facing renewed scrutiny after his campaign criticized Barack Obama for his link to a former radical who engaged in violent acts 40 years ago.

The U.S. Council for World Freedom was part of an international organization linked to former Nazi collaborators and ultra-right-wing death squads in Central America. The group was dedicated to stamping out communism around the globe.

The group was the cover for the White House operation that later became known as Iran-Contra.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081007/ap_on_el_pr/mccain_iran_contra;_ylt=Agm4eFK77.d2lXCkgXB4CI2s0NUE
 
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  • #446
Gokul43201 said:
Aren't those two statements in conflict? I'm totally for a federally set standard, so local districts can't decide that creationism and snake-oil alchemy be part of their curricula. But then, that does take control away from the local and state levels, doesn't it?
Not necessarily, unless the federal government imposes on or prescribes the eduction program for the states and local districts. Which it seems to do anyway.

The daily operation (administration, hiring teachers, training, . . .) and funding of schools belongs at the local level.

This topic is worth a thread by itself, and it won't get resolved during the next 4 weeks, or 4 years.

The question is - what should be the role or function of the national government in education? To guarantee that each citizen (child) has equal access to education? That's clearly not the case now. I can see it locally with two school districts where the quality of education and opportunity is vastly different. I could see it 35 years ago when I went to two different high schools which provided drastically different opportunities in mathematics and science. At the second high school, I did calculus, two years of chemistry, and physics (all at the AP level). Such an opportunity simply did not exist at the other high school - they were only 7 miles apart in the same metropolitan school district - i.e. same district administration and same funding source.

How does the federal government guarantee equal protection to each citizen when a majority in any state or local area decides to impose it's view of science or religious belief on the community? Or should there even be equal protection and equal access?
 
  • #447
CNN shows McCain losing ground on the electoral map - some States going from "leaning McCain", to "undecided" - and some "undecided", to "leaning Obama". Their maps now reads as 264-174, with the poll of polls at 49%-44%.

btw, if anyone caught my comment about CNN's Campbell Brown doing a good job... never mind. She has pulled some real second-rate stunts lately.
 
  • #448
If Obama wins, I think you could see him exercise some real bipartisanship and place a Republican or two in his cabinet.

Right now, the Senate looks to be at least 55 Dems with 2 independents, but Leiberman might not continue caucusing with the Dems. Unless Stevens of Alaska is cleared of wrong doing before the election, he probably loses his seat, as well. Gordon Smith and Elizabeth Dole might lose their Senate races. Franken and Coleman are also even in Minnesota.

You could wind up with 57 (somewhat likely) to 59 (possibly) Dem Senators, plus an independent. Getting Arlen Spector and/or the two Maine Senators to accept cabinet positions would mean the governor of their state would appoint a replacement for them. Both states have Democratic governors. Spector will have a hard time being re-elected in PA in 2010 if current trends and demographics continue.

60 Senators voting in the Democratic caucus is in reach. This could wind up being an even more disastorous election for Republicans than 2006.
 
  • #449
BobG said:
... but Leiberman might not continue caucusing with the Dems.

If they have 61, I hope they dump him and make him irrelevant.
 
  • #450
BobG said:
If Obama wins, I think you could see him exercise some real bipartisanship and place a Republican or two in his cabinet.
If Obama wins, I'll bet Hagel is on the really short list for Secretary of Defense.
 

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