What causes low pressure on a wing?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the causes of low pressure on a wing, exploring various explanations related to aerodynamics, fluid dynamics, and lift generation. Participants examine misconceptions, theoretical models, and practical examples, addressing both the physics of airflow around wings and the implications for lift generation.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that faster air velocity causes lower static pressure, but others challenge this by pointing out that the pressure of air leaving a source does not inherently decrease due to its motion.
  • There is a proposal that curved airflow above a wing leads to low pressure due to centrifugal forces, though this explanation is questioned regarding its validity.
  • One participant suggests that viscosity may cause air to follow the curved surface of a wing, while others propose that ambient pressure plays a role in this behavior.
  • A participant references Newton's second law and Bernoulli's theorem as frameworks for understanding lift, indicating that different explanations may coexist.
  • Concerns are raised about the applicability of the Coandă effect and surface tension in explaining lift, with some participants arguing that these concepts may not be directly relevant to the discussion of wings.
  • One participant mentions that the sufficient condition for lift is the downward redirection of airflow, regardless of wing shape, while another emphasizes the importance of maintaining attached flow to maximize lift.
  • There is a discussion about the relationship between pressure gradients and streamline curvature, with some arguing that it is a complex interplay rather than a straightforward cause-and-effect scenario.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views on the causes of low pressure on a wing, with no consensus reached on the explanations provided. The discussion remains unresolved, with various hypotheses and challenges presented.

Contextual Notes

Some claims rely on specific assumptions about airflow behavior and the applicability of fluid dynamics principles, which may not be universally accepted. The discussion also touches on various models and analogies that may not fully capture the complexities of aerodynamic lift.

  • #31
rcgldr said:
The tendency to follow a convex surface is reduced in the case of a low viscosity flame jet in air across an airfoil. Note how soon the jet detaches from the surface of the airfoil in the video below. In this case, the low viscosity of the jet entrains very little of the surrounding air, mostly pushing the air directly in front of the jet.



I'll admit I haven't given that problem much thought, but this seems unrelated to the classical Coanda effect to me at first glance. Yours is a phenomenon that's ultimately related to boundary-layer separation. A hot gas actually has a higher viscosity, so my first inclination would be that this might suggest a lower Reynolds number and reduced resistance to separation.
 
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  • #32
rcgldr said:
Note how soon the jet detaches from the surface of the airfoil in the video ...

boneh3ad said:
I'll admit I haven't given that problem much thought, but this seems unrelated to the classical Coanda effect to me at first glance. Yours is a phenomenon that's ultimately related to boundary-layer separation. A hot gas actually has a higher viscosity, so my first inclination would be that this might suggest a lower Reynolds number and reduced resistance to separation.
I struck through most of my prior post. You're correct that the Reynolds number is low, it's a small wing, and the jet speed is not that fast. I don't know what gas is being used to produce the flame, could this affect viscosity?
 
  • #33
rcgldr said:
I struck through most of my prior post. You're correct that the Reynolds number is low, it's a small wing, and the jet speed is not that fast. I don't know what gas is being used to produce the flame, could this affect viscosity?

It most certainly would. It's hard to glean much from that video without more information, but there could be any number of important factors when you have a flow such as that: high temperature gradients across the width of the flame/jet (meaning high density and viscosity gradients), chemical reactions between the combustion byproducts (and the resulting species concentration gradients), potentially ablation from the surface of the object if it isn't protected, compressibility, size... it's potentially a mess, and every one of those factors into Reynolds number and/or other aspects of the behavior of the boundary layer.
 
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  • #34
boneh3ad said:
I think water and a spoon are perfectly reasonable examples of the Coanda effects.

A common misconception is that Coandă effect is demonstrated when a stream of tap water flows over the back of a spoon held lightly in the stream and the spoon is pulled into the stream . While the flow looks very similar to the air flow over the ping pong ball above (if one could see the air flow), the cause is not really the Coandă effect. Here, because it is a flow of water into air, there is little entrainment of the surrounding fluid (the air) into the jet (the stream of water). This particular demonstration is dominated by surface tension. (McLean in "Understanding Aerodynamics" states that the water deflection "actually demonstrates molecular attraction and surface tension.

Air jet follow curved surface even in inviscid flow,indeed air viscosity is so small that is irrelevant...

Listen at 17:50


Listen at 21:10
 
  • #35
Change in pressure said:
A common misconception is that Coandă effect is demonstrated when a stream of tap water flows over the back of a spoon held lightly in the stream and the spoon is pulled into the stream . While the flow looks very similar to the air flow over the ping pong ball above (if one could see the air flow), the cause is not really the Coandă effect. Here, because it is a flow of water into air, there is little entrainment of the surrounding fluid (the air) into the jet (the stream of water). This particular demonstration is dominated by surface tension. (McLean in "Understanding Aerodynamics" states that the water deflection "actually demonstrates molecular attraction and surface tension.

Air jet follow curved surface even in inviscid flow,indeed air viscosity is so small that is irrelevant...

Listen at 17:50


Listen at 21:10


You can repost the same things over and over again, but clearly I simply disagree with Dr. McLean's characterization of that problem. I would counter that the problem has contributionsfrom both phenomena contributing to the behavior. Arguing about whether that problem is the Coandă effect is essentially arguing about whether a problem featuring a large contribution from surface tension is still covered by a phenomena described only qualitatively by Coandă. This is why Coandă is rarely mentioned in any formal course of fluid mechanics: the effect isn't a mathematically- or quantitatively-rigorous phenomenon. It's just a broad description of a behavior.

So basically, we are now arguing about something that actual fluid mechanicians don't even care about.
 
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  • #36
Thread is closed for a bit for Moderation...
 
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  • #37
It looks like we have done the best we can to help the OP. Thanks everybody for the replies. :smile:

Thread will remain closed now.
 

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