Huge pressure drop after changing pipe length (Don't think it's loss)

In summary, the experimenter replaced one of the sections of the pipe with a different length of pipe and found that there was a significant pressure change inside the flow system. The pressure and flow rate values on the instruments changed as a result. The pressure change could be explained by the increased volume of air in the third portion of the pipe compared to the other two sections.
  • #1
stanley650586031
8
0
TL;DR Summary
Huge pressure drop after changing pipe length ( I don't think it is due to head losses)
Hi All,

Recently, I have been struggling to seek a solution for a seemingly simple flow question and try to rationalize my thoughts with mechanical engineering knowledge I have acquired from school but none of them can make me feel comfortable about answering the phenomenon I encountered in the lab. So, I am here to seek for help.

The whole idea is just trying to physically observe the pressure and flow rate some point downstream before the air leaves the pipe. However, I accidentally discovered something weird but interesting in the experiment-As I replaced one of the sections of the pipe with a different length of pipe, there was a significant pressure change inside the flow system!

Below are the pictures that could better describe the experiments I did and observations I made. There are two configurations.

1566223819105.png


As shown in the picture above, the first configuration is that I have a total of four sections of pipes in this set up with two pressure gauges and one flow meter. The inlet condition is compressed air with pressure of 6 bar and outlet condition is atmosphere ( 1 bar) at sea level. The first pressure gauge is at the location of 50 mm from the source. The second pressure gauge is 5000 mm or 5 m downstream from the first gauge. For the flow meter, it is placed at 500 mm further downstream from the second pressure gauge. Regarding the pressure and flow rate values on the instruments, pressure value measured on gauge is 6 bar and value on the second gauge is 3 bar and flow rate is 2050 LPM. So, we could clearly see here that 3 bar of pressure became dynamic pressure (kinetic energy), leaving the system as high speed air jet and static pressure was 3 bar as measured by the pressure gauge 2.

1566224030428.png
For configuration 2 which is shown in the picture above, all the conditions stay the same except for the third portion of the pipe which I replaced it with a longer pipe with length of 6 m. The wired things happened here..... The pressure value for the second gauge became 5.5 bar and flow rate became 1200 LPM. What the heck just happened...

If we are just talking about the dynamic and static pressure here, it totally makes sense to me that as the static pressure goes up (What was measured by the gauge 2), the dynamic pressure goes down (flow rate dropped shown on the flow meter).
However, what I don't understand here is why changing the length of the pipe only could lead to such a significant pressure drop in the system. I thought about major head loss or minor loss or materials of the pipes but I don't think any of these would contribute to this degree of loss in pressure.

The intuitive way to explain this phenomenon, from my perspectives, is that in configuration 1, the volume of air in the third portion of the pipe (500 mm in length) is relativity less compared to that in configuration 2 due to length differences. We know in physics that if we exert a 100 N force on an object, it is going to push us back with 100 N considering no losses. The same works for air. Since the volume of air in the third portion of the pipe in the Config 1 is less than Config 2, the force required move that volume of air by a certain distance is less too meaning it will push us back with less forces leading to lower pressure at that section. Moreover, since the volume of air is less, if we still apply 6 bar of pressure on it, it will move relatively faster compared to Config 2 which has a longer pipe and thus more volume of air in that section.

For Config 2, we have a longer pipe in the third portion which means more volume of air which means it requires larger forces to move it by the same distance as Config 1. Larger force means air will push us back with that force too which could kind of explain why we have higher pressure there. Also, Larger volume of air is more difficult to move compared that of Config which explains why we have lower velocity at the outlet.

This is just my intuitive thinking but does not really have any scientific theories and equations to backup it.

What I need are some theories or equations that could perfectly explain this. If anyone has any thoughts, insights, ideas, or anything, please let me know. I will really appreciate it.
 
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  • #2
What is the I.D. of your pipe sections, with that information I can determine how much of your backpressure is due to your pipe and how much of it is due to the meter; and, with that information, perform flowing pressure drop analyses for your two piping lengths.
 
  • #3
The sum total of my "hands on" experience is using a simple blowpipe to stoke a fire. If you create a standing wave resonance in the pipe then the flow rate increases dramatically. I would bet something similar is happening here.
 
  • #4
if you install a valve downstream of gage 2, what do you expect happens to the flow rate as you throttle the valve closed? what happens to pressure 2? what about when the valve is completely closed?
 
  • #5
It might help to think about the results one would expect using the following scenario.
What would you expect the pressure at Gauge 2 to be if the 6000 mm length was in fact infinite? And under this condition what would you expect the flow rate to be?
Intuitively, I would expect the pressure at gauge 2 to be 6 bar and the flow rate to be zero.

This seems to be consistent with your findings; does it not?
 
  • #6
JBA said:
What is the I.D. of your pipe sections, with that information I can determine how much of your backpressure is due to your pipe and how much of it is due to the meter; and, with that information, perform flowing pressure drop analyses for your two piping lengths.

The ID is 10mm
 
  • #7
If you want to fully understand what is happening, search Moody Diagram. You have compressible flow, so cannot calculate the flow and pressure drop for the entire pipe in a single calculation. The Moody chart assumes incompressible flow, so calculate the pressure drop per length of pipe, then the length of pipe for 10% pressure drop. After that length of pipe, the density is lower, so the velocity is higher. Calculate the pressure drop per length of pipe again, then the length of pipe for another 10% pressure drop. Repeat until you get to the end. Adjust lengths as needed to get pressures at the gauge locations.

Hint: A spreadsheet is really helpful for these type calculations.
 
  • #8
Given the pressures involved, this smacks of Fanno flow. Compressible flow with friction.
 
  • #9
stanley650586031 said:
The ID is 10mm

Hi JBA, thank you for your inputs. I really appreciate it. Did you have a chance to figure out what the back pressure is? It will be super helpful if you have that information.

Thanks
Stanley
 
  • #10
jrmichler said:
If you want to fully understand what is happening, search Moody Diagram. You have compressible flow, so cannot calculate the flow and pressure drop for the entire pipe in a single calculation. The Moody chart assumes incompressible flow, so calculate the pressure drop per length of pipe, then the length of pipe for 10% pressure drop. After that length of pipe, the density is lower, so the velocity is higher. Calculate the pressure drop per length of pipe again, then the length of pipe for another 10% pressure drop. Repeat until you get to the end. Adjust lengths as needed to get pressures at the gauge locations.

Hint: A spreadsheet is really helpful for these type calculations.

Hi jrmicher, Thank you for you information. I appreciate it. I did calculate the major head losses for the system already which the frictional factor was derived from the Moody Diagram that you mentioned. However, the head loss does not contribute a large amount of pressure drop here based on my calculation, so there must be something else going on in the flow.

Thanks
Stanley
 
  • #11
Two things:
1) I estimated the pressure drop by extrapolating from tables in Ingersoll-Rand Compressed Air and Gas Data and Crane 410. Both result in initial pressure drop of about 0.5 PSI per foot. This agrees with your statement that calculated head loss is not large.

2) Your pipe lengths, flow rates, and pressure readings are consistent with large head loss.

How to reconcile this? When we have this type of inconsistency, it's time to check everything, and I mean everything. Check even the stupidly obvious things that you know do not need to checked.

Here's a list to start:
1) Is the flow meter showing air flow at standard temperature and pressure?
2) Have you confirmed that your pipe is really 10 mm ID?
3) Is the pipe smooth inside? If not, what is the roughness?
4) What is the ID of every single fitting in the system?
5) Check the gauges against each other to make sure that they all show the same pressure.
6) Can you check the flow meter? Possibly a short pipe with an orifice at the discharge?

If you are working with compressed air, I can recommend this book: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000YB9ZJ2/?tag=pfamazon01-20. There are other books that may be as good or better, but I know this one is good.
 
  • #12
stanley650586031 said:
Did you have a chance to figure out what the back pressure is? It will be super helpful if you have that information.
I have backpressure values at the meter inlet for both cases; and, I am working on the resulting getting a calculated pressure at the second gauge for both cases to see how those correlates with my calculated backpressures. I should have some feedback later today.
Note: Realizing that there is a meter inlet backpressure greater than the "0 Bar gauge" shown on the diagrams was the first step to getting realistic piping Dp values for the given flow rates and pressures for the second gauge as well.

With regard to the variance between the first gauge and the second gauge, there is no significant pressure drop for 500 mm length between the supply pressure and the first gauge, so it will indicate a pressure of 6 bar regardless of any changes in backpressure or pipe lengths, so the second gauge reading is the only one actually effected by the back pressure at the meter inlet and the downstream length change flowing pressure drop.
 
  • #13
I have now completed my analysis and while my calculated #2 gauge pressures are not exactly equal to your measured values, I think the results are close enough to verify that your #2 gauge readings are correct. Because of the P & T effects upon the air density, the fact that I assumed a 68°F air temperature and your actual air temperature may be different could be a factor in the difference between my calculated vs your measured gauge pressures.

My results are:
Configuration 1: Meter inlet back pressure = 2.24 Barg; & Gauge #2 pressure = 2.84 Barg
Configuration 2: Meter inlet back pressure = 2.73 Barg; & Gauge #2 pressure = 5.10 Barg

So, as I stated above the variance in the Gauge #2 is a result of its sensitivity to the meter backpressure and piping flowing pressure loss; while, Gauge #1 is so close to the supply source that it has no significant inlet piping flow pressure loss so regardless of the down stream effects it will always read the 6 Barg supply pressure. So nothing weird going on.
 
  • #14
I have been working on confirming the above results by a second program with a different calculating an method and have gotten confirming results; but, while doing this the substantial differences in the meter backpressures confounds me a bit. Without any other information my initial assumption was that configuration 2 was a rework of configuration 1 and therefore the same meter is used in both configurations; but, the significant difference in the meter backpressures would indicate each configuration has it own and separate meter.
Can you confirm this is true; and, out of interest, style of flow meter you are using on the systems.
 

FAQ: Huge pressure drop after changing pipe length (Don't think it's loss)

1. What is causing the sudden pressure drop after changing the pipe length?

There could be several factors contributing to the pressure drop, including changes in flow rate, friction losses, or changes in elevation. It is important to carefully analyze the system and consider all possible causes.

2. Could the change in pipe length be the sole reason for the pressure drop?

Possibly, but it is unlikely. While changing the pipe length can certainly affect pressure, it is important to also consider other factors such as changes in pipe diameter, fittings, and overall system design.

3. How can I calculate the pressure drop after changing the pipe length?

There are various equations and formulas that can be used to calculate pressure drop, including the Darcy-Weisbach equation and the Hazen-Williams equation. However, it is important to also consider the specific characteristics of your system and make any necessary adjustments to these calculations.

4. Is there a way to mitigate the pressure drop after changing the pipe length?

Yes, there are several methods that can be used to reduce pressure drop, such as increasing pipe diameter, reducing flow rate, or using smoother pipes and fittings. It is important to carefully assess the system and determine the most effective solution.

5. Can a pressure drop after changing pipe length be dangerous?

In some cases, a sudden pressure drop can cause issues such as cavitation or water hammer, which can be dangerous for the system. It is important to monitor and address any pressure drops to prevent potential hazards and ensure the efficient operation of the system.

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