News What do you do with a problem like Ahmadinejad?

[Gokul43201]

I'm still getting the impression that you don't know of any evidence of Iran pursuing any weapons-only nuclear technology though.

Perhaps you missed the fact that the IAEA discovered two different grades of HEU in Iran? Also, you must have missed the humint reports I quoted. All this in addition to the dozen odd points of circumstantial evidence.

What would you consider evidence of a weapons grade enrichment program?

 

[Hurkyl]

One could simply wait.

Ahmadinejad could actually be sincere about peaceful uses for enrichment.

Do you think they're crazy enough to start aa nuclear war

I think I can explain myself better, so let me respond to this again.


When Joe Warmonger comes storming down the hall saying "Iran wants to nuke people. Iran bad. Joe smash!" You would say "But maybe they're telling the truth, and this is all a big misunderstanding," and you would have Joe start thinking "Hrm, maybe I overestimated the cost of inaction".


But the problem is that this works both ways, and you seem to ignore that.

When Jane Peacemonger comes prancing down the hall saying "Tra la la, Iran just wants to be peaceful! Let's leave them alone!" You should say "But maybe it's all a smokescreen, and they really want to nuke people," and Jane would start thinking "Hrm, can we really afford to do nothing?"


Of course, maybe Joe will decide "It's just too risky to wait, we have to do something", and Jane will decide "It probably won't happen, and if it does, it won't be that bad, so it's better to gamble." Or, they may do an about-face. But either way, their decision is more informed than it originally was.

 

[Evo]

The link is in the first post, he even quoted a bit from the Iran's response in post #8, assuming we are all reading the same thread here anyway.

After 11 pages of posts, you do need to post the link or at the very least refer to the post number. First of all, not all members are following this thread that closely, and as for me, do you have any idea how many threads I am following? I don't have time to hunt to make sure I am looking at what you are referring to. That's why we have guidelines.

 

[edward]

You didn't know? He believes that we're in the end times.

Ironically that is exactly what the U.S. Christian right believes. And they also believe it to the point that the are perfectly willing to try to make it happen.

 

[edward]

From #62,


Quote:
Originally Posted by edward
The president of Iran does appear to be a bit crazy, at least to westerners. But that does not mean that he is crazy enough to bring about his own incineration.(snip)


and, from #3,


Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrusabdollahi
Iran has 53,000 suicide bombers on stand by.


and, from WHO, http://www.who.int/mental_health/pre.../en/index.html ,

suicide rates run 20-30 per hundred thousand for males 15-34 years of age.

Crazy enough? Arguably crazier than "the average bear."

So you are then saying that we should invade Iran because they have a high pecentage of crazy suicidal Isalmic people who are ruled by a maniac. These crazy suicidal people may at some point build some nukes and put them on missiles, and their maniac president may launch those missiles. And they can do this all while under constant satellite surveillance by the rest of the world.

That sounds very similar to what we were told about Saddam's Iraq.
We have to play the game a lot smarter this time around.

 

[Evo]

Ironically that is exactly what the U.S. Christian right believes. And they also believe it to the point that the are perfectly willing to try to make it happen.

If only we could isolate them together, off the planet preferably...

 

[edward]

If only we could isolate them together, off the planet preferably...

Wouln't that be great The end times thingy is made perfectly clear in the video in this link. It is a bit faaaar out there to the point that it is funny, at least to me.
http://mediamatters.org/items/200608230009

 

[kyleb]

Perhaps you missed the fact that the IAEA discovered two different grades of HEU in Iran? Also, you must have missed the humint reports I quoted. All this in addition to the dozen odd points of circumstantial evidence.

What would you consider evidence of a weapons grade enrichment program?

I did note the HEU, but that has constructive uses as well. And can make weapons out of some pretty low grade stuff, no level of enrichment is exclusively for weapons and circumstantial evidence certainly not proof. Granted I wasn't expecting anything more than that though as if there was something substantial then surely the White House would be singing it from the rooftops rather than putting pressure on our intelligence community to come up with something.

And Evo, what guideline are you citing here?

 

[Anttech]

hizbulla made tunnels to go under our defences around gaza, and abducted the solider...

Have you got proof of that? I would Like pictures of these tunnel under gaza into Israel that Hezbollah built?

I would also be interested in how Hezbollah got to Gaza? via Jordan and Eygpt? Did they then built a big tunnel from Egypt under Gaza all the way through Israel to the northern border with Lebanon? That would be a very big tunnel.

 

[Yonoz]

Have you got proof of that? I would Like pictures of these tunnel under gaza into Israel that Hezbollah built?

I would also be interested in how Hezbollah got to Gaza? via Jordan and Eygpt? Did they then built a big tunnel from Egypt under Gaza all the way through Israel to the northern border with Lebanon? That would be a very big tunnel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/middle_east/04/gazas_tunnels/html/7.stm"
http://www.waronline.org/en/analysis/pal_weapons.htm" .
Hizbullah sent experts to train and advise Palestinian terrorist organisations.

 

[Anttech]

I was referring to the capture of the Israeli soldiers around the Lebonese border.
TuviaDaCat posted that Hezbollah used tunnels in Gaza to do this, opps Perhaps I got my wires crossed. I think he was referring to the *kidnapping* of Israeli soliders around the gaza strip. Well that isn't as much a leap of logic. Still in the link you provided I see information on Arms that Hezbollah has, but nothing on them "Helping" Palestine Soliders, dig the tunnels.

 

[Yonoz]

Still in the link you provided I see information on Arms that Hezbollah has, but nothing on them "Helping" Palestine Soliders, dig the tunnels.

Obviously, a Palestinian can dig a tunnel just as well as a Hizbullah man. These tunnels have been a feature of Gaza for quite some time, they probably are not Hizbullah's innovation, but the characteristics of the kidnapping, and the fact that it was controlled by Hamas' Syrian leadership, are the best available information that Hizbullah has its hand in this. It may well be a Hamas operation, but clearly Hizbullah is making it easier, and probably actively aiding, Hamas' struggle.

 

[Anttech]

These tunnels have been a feature of Gaza for quite some time, they probably are not Hizbullah's innovation, but the characteristics of the kidnapping, and the fact that it was controlled by Hamas' Syrian leadership, are the best available information that Hizbullah has its hand in this.

Glad we cleared that up.

Hezbollah are not Hamas, they have a common enemy, but they arent the same thing. So in the interests of clear communication and facts let's stick to what we actually know, not what we would like to know.

So back the statement made by TuviaDaCat:

hizbulla made tunnels to go under our defences around gaza, and abducted the solider...

This is just speculation, and rather baseless, and certainly void of any proof.

 

[bartman fartman]

This could be dangerous stuff here, ahmadinejad said he was giving a speech and a light came on him from or something like that ,this guy believes armagedon has to happen before the return of the muslim messiah,if he truelly believes in ala and what he himself is preaching and if he fears burning in hell if he doesn't do his gods will,then he may very well carry this out, he said he's going bulk with nuclear weapons then he tells the un he doesn't want nuclear weapons,this guy is a lier and i wouldn't trust a word he's saying,as for what to do about him i think we will leave it to the experts.

 

[Astronuc]

I did note the HEU, but that has constructive uses as well. And can make weapons out of some pretty low grade stuff, no level of enrichment is exclusively for weapons and circumstantial evidence certainly not proof.

There is an enrichment level below which nuclear warhead would be impractical to deliver or to form into a supercritical mass. The issue with HEU in Iran is that it indicates that the producers were going well beyond an enrichment necessary for power generation, which would contradict that the purposes would be for power generation. On the other hand, small research reactors and fast reactors use enrichments greater than 5% U-235, which is the current limit for LWR fuel. Nevertheless, higher enrichments make other people nervous.

And Evo, what guideline are you citing here?

Politics and World Affairs Guidelines
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=113181
One is supposed to read and accept the guidelines in order to participate in the forums.

2) Citations of sources for any factual claims (primary sources should be used whenever possible).

3) Any counter-arguments to statements already made must clearly state the point on which there is disagreement, the reason(s) why a different view is held, and cite appropriate sources to counter the argument.

 

[bartman fartman]

Also, Iran is a nation. Just as is Germany, or France, or Israel. They have every right to pursue nuclear technology if they want to. Other countries do not need to get our approval to govern themselves. Is this really what we want our nation to be known as? A bully that goes around meddling in everyones affairs?,,,,, and wake up one morning as we did on 911

Ok let's say we don't meddle in there afairs and we wake up 1 morning and switch on the news and find out israel and some mager citys in the us have been wiped of the map, don't deseave yourself and think it won't happen after all 911 happened,this guy personaly beleives he's doing gods will by bringing armeggedon to the world and he said himself a presense came on him in a speech if that happened he must beleave in ala and he must fear going to the fires of hell if he doesn't do it,we should bomb the nuclear sights because they are not in civilian areas.

 

[Gokul43201]

I did note the HEU, but that has constructive uses as well.

Such as what? Nuclear submarines and Fast Neutron Source Reactors - niether of which Iran possesses? And for the second time, you've ignored the humint reports. And you've failed to specify what would qualify as "substantial" evidence.

And can make weapons out of some pretty low grade stuff,

This is irrelevant.

no level of enrichment is exclusively for weapons and circumstantial evidence certainly not proof.

It is evidence and evidence is what you asked for. Every time your request is met, you simply change it! First you changed the content of the "claim", and now you change the nature of the "evidence". What a waste of my time!

 

[bartman fartman]

It is evidence and evidence is what you asked for. Every time your request is met, you simply change it! First you changed the content of the "claim", and now you change the nature of the "evidence". What a waste of my time!--------------------------------------------------------[/QUOTE] He said he wants to wype israel of the map, he said he wants to go bulk with nuclear weapons, he said he wants to defeat the anglo saxons, he kicked the u.n inspecters out, nobody took hitler serious at 1start and look what happened ,so the question is do we take this guy seriously,that guy who keeps disagreeing with everything you say will probally only realize the seriousnes of this if someone gets nuked.

 

[Cyrus]

Ok let's say we don't meddle in there afairs and we wake up 1 morning and switch on the news and find out israel and some mager citys in the us have been wiped of the map, don't deseave yourself and think it won't happen after all 911 happened,this guy personaly beleives he's doing gods will by bringing armeggedon to the world and he said himself a presense came on him in a speech if that happened he must beleave in ala and he must fear going to the fires of hell if he doesn't do it,we should bomb the nuclear sights because they are not in civilian areas.

This is nothing but what if...and what if tomorrow he converts and becomes a jew? I don't care much for what if. Do you have an ounce of proof that this plot is going to happen, or are you just fear mongering? This is nothing but a disparate argument.

 

[Lisa!]

It is evidence and evidence is what you asked for. Every time your request is met, you simply change it! First you changed the content of the "claim", and now you change the nature of the "evidence". What a waste of my time!--------------------------------------------------------

He said he wants to wype israel of the map, he said he wants to go bulk with nuclear weapons, he said he wants to defeat the anglo saxons, he kicked the u.n inspecters out, nobody took hitler serious at 1start and look what happened ,so the question is do we take this guy seriously,that guy who keeps disagreeing with everything you say will probally only realize the seriousnes of this if someone gets nuked.[/QUOTE]
He only said but Bush already did lots of things worse than that and I don't see anyone here to be worried about that. Come on dear! Just think for a minute instead of talking and talking.

 

[Anttech]

I don't remember seeing Him say "He wants to beat the Anglo-Saxons" Nor that he want "to go bulk with Nuclear weapons"

Can you point me to where he said this?

 

[Lisa!]

I think I can understand why women would want to vote for him - from what I've read, he's been quite supportive of reform that treats women less harshly than before (and I hope that's what the majority of women want). I have no idea however, what percentage of the voting public is female; I've imagined this fraction to be small, but I hope I'm wrong. And I'm sure his strongly anti-American agenda resonated with a lot of people, but this is mostly second-hand information and some speculation. Also, maybe I'm just terribly disappointed because I always thought Karroubi had a good chance, and I was rooting for him (didn't care for either Ahmadinejad or Rafsanjani).

I prefer you clarify something for me before I reply to this part of your post: what do you exactly in your mind by that "treating woemn harshly"?
I can guess but I'm not sure anyway!

I don't remember seeing Him say "He wants to beat the Anglo-Saxons" Nor that he want "to go bulk with Nuclear weapons"

Can you point me to where he said this?

In people's nightmares!

 

[bartman fartman]

This is nothing but what if...and what if tomorrow he converts and becomes a jew? I don't care much for what if. Do you have an ounce of proof that this plot is going to happen, or are you just fear mongering? This is nothing but a disparate argument.

I think its good if they have nuclear power shiped to them instead of developeing it themselfs i got no problem with them having nuclear power this way,We should investergate if they are building nuclear weapons after all we would do the same if it was russia saying these things and building these facilitys or if it was germany, anybody that thinks egnoring iran is the right thing to do needs to gro a brain.

 

[bartman fartman]

I don't remember seeing Him say "He wants to beat the Anglo-Saxons" Nor that he want "to go bulk with Nuclear weapons"

Can you point me to where he said this?

You probably know stuff he said that i don't know and i know stuff he said that you probably don't know about, look it up on some credible web sights I am sure youl find it dude.

 

[kyleb]

There is an enrichment level below which nuclear warhead would be impractical to deliver or to form into a supercritical mass. The issue with HEU in Iran is that it indicates that the producers were going well beyond an enrichment necessary for power generation, which would contradict that the purposes would be for power generation. On the other hand, small research reactors and fast reactors use enrichments greater than 5% U-235, which is the current limit for LWR fuel. Nevertheless, higher enrichments make other people nervous.

I understand that, I just don't consider it reasonable to perpetuate such anxiety.

Politics and World Affairs Guidelines
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=113181
One is supposed to read and accept the guidelines in order to participate in the forums.

I have read those guidelines, but I made no factual claims or counter-arguments in the post I was reprimanded for, so what guideline have I broke? Is my crime here simply that I didn't bother to flip back to the beginning of the thread to copy the link which anyone who is actually interested in paying attention to this thread should know is there?*Edit* - And considering the prior events in this thread mentioned bellow, I'm curious; does making a factual claim while citing a source that doesn't back the claim go against our guidelines, or is that acceptable behavior here?

What a waste of my time!

I'm sorry man, but I simply asked Yonoz to quote the portion of the article he was suggesting showed the evidence he claimed it did, and you took it on yourself to abstract from that. I tried to humor you hoping to learn something interesting, but most of what you presented I was already aware of and I've still yet to have my question answered. As far as I'm concerned this whole tangent has been a waste of time, so perhaps we should just leave it at that.

 

[Anttech]

I think its good if they have nuclear power shiped to them instead of developeing it themselfs i got no problem with them having nuclear power this way,We should investergate if they are building nuclear weapons after all we would do the same if it was russia saying these things and building these facilitys or if it was germany, anybody that thinks egnoring iran is the right thing to do needs to gro a brain.

AFAIK Russia has more nuclear warheads than the US, what are you talking about?

Edit: Sorry I missunderstood, you mean that if Russia were making threats like you are asserting Iran is doing they would be investagated. Anyway bad example, I don't think anyone would have the 'bottle' to attempt doing that to Russia.

 

[daveb]

You probably know stuff he said that i don't know and i know stuff he said that you probably don't know about, look it up on some credible web sights I am sure youl find it dude.

It's actually your job to provide supporting evidence for claims you make, not anyone else's to your job for you.

 

[russ_watters]

You don't kidnap Soliders, you take prisoners... Even the media is making the destintion now... They took the prisioner so they could negotiate the relase of *kidnaped* Hezbollah personelle.

Is that meant to be funny? Flipping definitions of words in adjoining sentences is hypocrisy and deceit, not clever debating.

Well Israel shelled first, Israel were firing at civilians, and Hezbollah is helped out by Iran..

They wanted to negotate, you didnt...

Ugh, this is why I stay out of such threads. Repeating the same lies over and over again does not make them true, Anttech.

 

[bartman fartman]

He only said but Bush already did lots of things worse than that and I don't see anyone here to be worried about that. Come on dear! Just think for a minute instead of talking and talking.-----------------------[/QUOTE]
By killing these terrorist, is that classed as bush killing inocent arabs when they kill these terrorist hell in world war 2 they leveled germany to kill the bad guys and bush is doing pressision attacks against the terrorist.

 

[Anttech]

Is that meant to be funny? Flipping definitions of words in adjoining sentences is hypocrisy and deceit, not clever debating. Ugh, this is why I stay out of such threads. Repeating the same lies over and over again does not make them true, Anttech.

No not funny, I was making a point. Glad you got it! Its not deceit, I was showing how the use of certain words depends on the perspective of the users (Kidnapping of soldiers/capturing of soldiers, the freedom fighters/the Terrorists)..

I am not lieing Russ, and I don't lie! Perhaps sometimes I am wrong (I am human) but I certainly don't lie. Since you have now made that accusation care to educated me to actually what happened please. No opinions just plane simple facts.