What Does the Russian Word Poshlost Really Mean?

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The discussion centers around the concept of untranslatable words across different languages, highlighting the Russian term "пошлость" (poshlost), which describes something that appears exalted but is actually banal. Participants also mention other untranslatable words, such as the Czech "litost," which conveys a state of agony from recognizing one's own misery, and the Portuguese "saudade," representing a deep sense of longing. The conversation touches on how certain words, like "fremdschämen" in German, express complex emotions that lack direct English equivalents. Additionally, there is exploration of how some words have been adopted into other languages, illustrating cultural exchanges. Overall, the thread emphasizes the richness of language and the nuances that often get lost in translation.
  • #61
DennisN said:
"Arigata meiwaku" (Japanese): 'Misplaced kindness' or 'unwelcome kindness'. I remember this one described as when someone does you an unwelcome favor which misfired, causing harm. In Swedish we have a word with roughly the same meaning, "björntjänst" (which roughly means "bear favor"):
Since both those terms are not single words, I'll take that as license for an English "term" of multiple words:

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."
 
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  • #62
DaveC426913 said:
reticent/reserved? - inclined to be silent or uncommunicative in speech.
This is again passive, a part of a person's character. But even extrovert people can schweigen. It is the decision to remain silent instead of breaking the silence with small talk. It is literally an active verb in German. And to te best of my knowledge, there isn't an adequate English active verb.
 
  • #63
By the way: What is the opposite of luck?

The dictionary gave me bad luck (two words), misfortune (too global and pathetic), infelicity (even more pathetic). I guess I could add "Pech" to the untranslatable words. It means the kind of bad luck you have on an everyday level: stumbling, in a lottery, someone detected your hidden intentions, etc.

And it allows the funny German abbreviation PP, persönliches Pech = personal bad luck.
 
  • #64
Speaking of "untranslatable"... I'm from Denmark. A part of our national narrative (aimed at tourists, I'm sure) is that the word "hygge" (cozying? Having innocent family-oriented fun?) is unique to Denmark. This is ofcourse ludicrous as I'm sure people in other countries know how to "let the coziness rip".

There's a (very) tiny kernel of truth though as the word "hygge" can be used as both a verb, adjective, and with a little bending, a noun. Still, it always struck me as downright arrogant to imply that having a nice time with your friends and family is somehow unique to Denmark.
 
  • #65
sbrothy said:
Speaking of "untranslatable"... I'm from Denmark. A part of our national narrative (aimed at tourists, I'm sure) is that the word "hygge" (cozying? Having innocent family-oriented fun?) is unique to Denmark. This is ofcourse ludicrous as I'm sure people in other countries know how to "let the coziness rip".

There's a (very) tiny kernel of truth though as the word "hygge" can be used as both a verb, adjective, and with a little bending, a noun. Still, it always struck me as downright arrogant to imply that having a nice time with your friends and family is somehow unique to Denmark.
I could have bet it was Lego, not hygge.
 
  • #66
DaveC426913 said:
reticent/reserved? - inclined to be silent or uncommunicative in speech.
Reticent is only for people. Schweigen can apply to anything.
 
  • #67
fresh_42 said:
This is again passive, a part of a person's character. But even extrovert people can schweigen. It is the decision to remain silent instead of breaking the silence with small talk. It is literally an active verb in German. And to te best of my knowledge, there isn't an adequate English active verb.
Silence can be either active or passive. Silence! is something the Bad Guy is inclined to command.
 
  • #68
Hornbein said:
Schweigen can apply to anything.
This is wrong. Schweigen can only somebody who could otherwise speak, ergo persons. The noun das Schweigen means the silence, but I was explicitly talking about the verb.
 
  • #69
Hornbein said:
Silence can be either active or passive. Silence! is something the Bad Guy is inclined to command.
Wrong again. Silence is a noun, the command would be "Be silent", which is passive.
 
  • #70
fresh_42 said:
Wrong again. Silence is a noun, the command would be "Be silent", which is passive.
Well I guess when the Bad Guy guy with the armed guards shouts "Silence!" I should respond, "Such improper English. Sire."
 
  • #71
fresh_42 said:
This is wrong. Schweigen can only somebody who could otherwise speak, ergo persons. The noun das Schweigen means the silence, but I was explicitly talking about the verb.
Alles schweiget, Nachtigallen
locken mit süßen Melodien
Tränen ins Auge, Schwermut ins Herz.
 
  • #72
Hornbein said:
Alles schweiget, Nachtigallen
locken mit süßen Melodien
Tränen ins Auge, Schwermut ins Herz.
In which case the nightingale is the acting person, or everybody, which means the verb is used as an active one. All do something, in particular the nightingale, namely schweigen. You said everything can schweigen. This is wrong, a tree or a chair cannot.

It is quite simple: You cannot translate "Ich schweige." except you describe it otherwise or use a passive verb. E.g. Google translates it as "I am silent." which is obviously passive.

schweigen = to be silent which is grammatically completely different. That was all I said, there is no correspondence in English. The different grammar implies a different use, and a different meaning.

Edit: "Sie wünschten vermutlich ich shchwiege!" The closest in meaning would be "You wished presumably I shut up!" but this is neither a correct translation nor very nice.
 
  • #73
Indonesian does not have the words brother or sister. Instead they use adik [younger sibling] or kakak [older sibling]. It's partly because you address people older than yourself differently than younger people. When you meet someone often the first question is how old are you.

In Bali people don't usually tell you their name. Instead they give you a title which tells you both their caste and their birth order. In Balinese the different castes are addressed differently. It's so complicated that you have to learn it from earliest childhood to do it correctly. Posted notices and public announcements can't make this distinction so they are done in Indonesian.

If you want to say brother or sister its something like adik perumpuan [younger sibling who is female].

Westerners think that the double word is a plural. That can be but it is usually something else. More often it indicates something that is fake or a toy in a sort of cute way. Like a ship is a kapal so toy ship is a kapal-kapal. Or it can be a word, a dolphin is a lomba-lomba. Such things are always pronounced with accent on the first and last syllable, so KApal-kaPAL.

That reminds me of a sentence I learned from a third grade textbook. Mengapa membanding-bandingkan? [Why make comparisons?] As you can see there's no inhibition about long words. Instead one-syllable words are uncommon.
 
  • #74
Hornbein said:
Alles schweiget, Nachtigallen
locken mit süßen Melodien
Tränen ins Auge, Schwermut ins Herz.

fresh_42 said:
In which case the nightingale is the acting person, or everybody, which means the verb is used as an active one. All do something, in particular the nightingale, namely schweigen. You said everything can schweigen. This is wrong, a tree or a chair cannot.

All is silent, but not the nightingales that sing.
 
  • #75
strangerep said:
In the late 1990's, I worked as an ex-pat S/W contractor in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Although English is widely spoken there, I made an effort every day to learn at least one or two new words of Malay/Indonesian (they call it just "Bahasa").

Some of my fellow expats were rather arrogant and dismissive of Bahasa compared to English, citing the way it uses a double-word to express plural. Then one day I became aware that of the words "kita" and "kami" translate (naively) to "we". I asked a Malaysian colleague to explain the distinction, and he actually had to go away for a little while to think about it, then returned with an explanation.
Hornbein said:
I'm no longer sure, but I'd say "kita" means "everyone here" while "kami" means "our group."
strangerep said:
Yes, that's essentially how it was explained to me.
Interesting! I know very badly tiny phrases of Malay from the Singapore national anthem and pledge, and these include "kita" and "kami", but I never knew the distinction. The national anthem is always sung in Malay, never in translation. My knowledge of Malay is essentially zero so I'm mostly singing sounds whose meaning I don't know, although I learned their meaning long ago in school. The pledge is usually said in English, but school children have to say it in the other official languages from time to time (we recite after a leader in that case, since most Singaporeans only know English and one of the other official languages).

National anthem: Mari kita rakyat Singapura
English translation: Come fellow Singaporeans

Pledge: We, the citizens of Singapore,
Malay translation: Kami, warganegara Singapura
 
  • #76
There's a Malay word or part of a word "lah" that has been adopted into colloquial Singapore English (Singlish). I don't think it is translatable. It's in the national anthem "Majulah", but usually we use it to convey an informal tone.

Wikipedia explains:
"In Malay, 'lah' is used to change a verb into a command or to soften its tone, particularly when usage of the verb may seem impolite. For example, "to drink" is "minum", but "Here, drink!" is "minumlah". Similarly, 'lah' is frequently used with imperatives in Singlish, such as the command, "Drink lah!" (Come on, drink!)."
 
  • #77
atyy said:
Interesting! I know very badly tiny phrases of Malay from the Singapore national anthem and pledge, and these include "kita" and "kami", but I never knew the distinction. The national anthem is always sung in Malay, never in translation. My knowledge of Malay is essentially zero so I'm mostly singing sounds whose meaning I don't know, although I learned their meaning long ago in school. The pledge is usually said in English, but school children have to say it in the other official languages from time to time (we recite after a leader in that case, since most Singaporeans only know English and one of the other official languages).

National anthem: Mari kita rakyat Singapura
English translation: Come fellow Singaporeans

Pledge: We, the citizens of Singapore,
Malay translation: Kami, warganegara Singapura
Would I be correct in guessing that more Singaporeans speak Chinese than Malaysian?
 
  • #78
atyy said:
There's a Malay word or part of a word "lah" that has been adopted into colloquial Singapore English (Singlish). I don't think it is translatable. It's in the national anthem "Majulah", but usually we use it to convey an informal tone.

Wikipedia explains:
"In Malay, 'lah' is used to change a verb into a command or to soften its tone, particularly when usage of the verb may seem impolite. For example, "to drink" is "minum", but "Here, drink!" is "minumlah". Similarly, 'lah' is frequently used with imperatives in Singlish, such as the command, "Drink lah!" (Come on, drink!)."
Yes, its a friendly imperative. Then there's "dong" which like a friendly "duh", as in pointing out that something is obvious. Ice cream vendors on bicycles would play a song that went "lari dong" which means "run, obviously."

Then "aduh" when means ouch, oi veh, oops, and so forth. There's only that one exclamation, while English has quite a few. Well, there's "weh!" which for a while was very popular but didn't seem to mean anything. To me it was more like a nervous tick.
 
  • #79
Hornbein said:
Would I be correct in guessing that more Singaporeans speak Chinese than Malaysian?
Yes, although a significant minority of Chinese speak Malay fluently, especially if they grew up in Malaysia or Indonesia.
 
  • #80
Hornbein said:
Then there's "dong" which like a friendly "duh", as in pointing out that something is obvious.
My favorite expression, which I used ONLY towards other expat programmers, was "Otak kelapa!". :oldlaugh:
 
  • #81
strangerep said:
My favorite expression, which I used ONLY towards other expat programmers, was "Otak kelapa!". :oldlaugh:
Too bad. Kepala kelapa would be a lot more stylish. :-)
 
  • #82
Hornbein said:
Too bad. Kepala kelapa would be a lot more stylish. :-)
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  • #83
atyy said:
There's a Malay word or part of a word "lah" that has been adopted into colloquial Singapore English (Singlish). I don't think it is translatable. It's in the national anthem "Majulah", but usually we use it to convey an informal tone.

Wikipedia explains:
"In Malay, 'lah' is used to change a verb into a command or to soften its tone, particularly when usage of the verb may seem impolite. For example, "to drink" is "minum", but "Here, drink!" is "minumlah". Similarly, 'lah' is frequently used with imperatives in Singlish, such as the command, "Drink lah!" (Come on, drink!)."
While not a direct translation, something that fills that same function is "please", to-wit:

"Drink! Please!"
 
  • #84
My wife and I did a walking tour in Slovenia about 10 years ago. Before the trip I studied Slovene for about 6 months. One English word, "we," has no direct translation in Slovene, because that language distinguishes between a group of two people vs. a group of three or more.

We (two people) - medva - literally "we two"
We (three or more) - me

The same concept applies to 2nd person -- you two vs. you (a group of three or more), and 3rd person -- they (two) vs. they (three or more).

While most languages (at least the ones I'm familiar with) distinguish between singular pronouns (e.g. in English I, you, he, she, it) and plural pronouns (we, you, they), Slovene also has the concept of dual pronouns, a concept that was once present in all Slavic languages, but persists now only in Slovene.
 
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  • #85
My understanding is that there are no "untranslatable words." That is words encapsulate concepts in a language that can be described in any other human language. It may take a rather lot of words to adequately describe the concept, but it can be done.

For example, there are languages that lacks words for colours, only referring (for example) to light or dark. Yet the concept of "green" can be described to a speaker of the language as "light like the grass" (for example).
 
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  • #86
green slime said:
Yet the concept of "green" can be described to a speaker of the language as "light like the grass" (for example).
Or it could mean brown or tan (sandy colour) depending on location and time of year.
 
  • #87
green slime said:
It may take a rather lot of words to adequately describe the concept, but it can be done.
I think that's the point. If you have to include a lengthy description in a translation (of some art or even just a sentence) than it's no longer a translation but ... commentary, maybe? So the translation actually failed.

I know there is a special kind of 'translation' when all the notes and references are meticulously included (I don't know how this is called) but again, that has a different title. (*)

Ps of (*): Critical edition. When the language or the context is so foreign, or the source is so broken/diverse that for better understanding all the relevant stuff included - so a few pages of ancient perchament is enough to fill a whole book.
 
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  • #88
Astronuc said:
Or it could mean brown or tan (sandy colour) depending on location and time of year.
Indeed. And that's not just facetiousness.
'Light like the grass' is a very poor description for 'green'. It's not a translation.
 
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  • #89
green slime said:
It may take a rather lot of words to adequately describe the concept, but it can be done.
"Dictionary Paradox":
The first word in the dictionary is defined in terms of following words.
Also the second word, and so on.
Therefore, all words can be defined in terms of “Zyzzyva”.
 
  • #90
green slime said:
My understanding is that there are no "untranslatable words." That is words encapsulate concepts in a language that can be described in any other human language. It may take a rather lot of words to adequately describe the concept, but it can be done.
That assumes that all languages have sufficient words to describe everything. If a language had only two words - "yes" and "no", say - then a lot of words couldn't be translated into that language.
 
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