What Does the Russian Word Poshlost Really Mean?

[Rive]

They are utterances, or sounds someone may make to show but not state a reaction.

The fun part is, that they are still expected to be translated - and sometimes that's harder than translate just the words.

A side note on this line: I don't think that cartoons and comics (and their counterparts around the world) are high art, but to translate them still is

 

[BillTre]

Yes, that's essentially how it was explained to me. I found it enlightening (and a bit humbling) that this language, which plenty of ignorant expats scorn, can in fact express concepts for which there is no direct (single word) representation in English.

I found this to be an interesting comment.
I would guess that this kind of situation (not having a single word with equivalent meanings in both languages), could be found, going both ways between most languages. (Of course, "equivalent" would require defining.)

In common usage, there is probably an upper limit to the numbers of words in a language (based on an assumption of an upper limit to the number of words a person could usefully remember).
This would limit the number of different concepts that could be linked to a single word.

Science (I would expect, as a communication heavy, cultural sub-group, that uses a lot of detailed terms with intricate meanings) has a large number of words not in common use in English (as a language example).
These science specific words would be words of English language science jargon.
Using a specialized sets of words, meaningful to only a subset of the English speaking population.
However, the meanings of the science words are often equally usable in other languages (presumabbly because their meaning would be novel to almost any language and a word (which is already available) would be needed to go with the meaning), in their science jargon (shared to some extent with English).
A backdoor for knowledge transfer.

This kind of fracturing of language might be expected where the number of meanings needing words is expanding, like within the ever expanding boundaries of science.
Or new things from the intersection of two or more overlapping sub-cultures. (Words are of culture.)
There are now, for example, jargon like sub-divisions within science as a whole. And there are subdivisions within those divisions. Someone it desert ecology could easily use words not understood by a neurochemist or developmental biologist.

I don't know about putting too much emphasis on single words.
If you can string together a bunch of words, to make a super-large single word with a new meaning that can determined by adding up the meanings of the parts, than you can get a lot more useful (understandable) single words in your language.
Not sure if that's better than just a string of words to convey an equivalent meaning (from an language's operational point of view).

 

[Hornbein]

Yes, that's essentially how it was explained to me. I found it enlightening (and a bit humbling) that this language, which plenty of ignorant expats scorn, can in fact express concepts for which there is no direct (single word) representation in English.

I have found Ubud expats, as "liberal" a bunch as you might care to find, more often than not look down on the Balinese. I recall "they can't think abstractly," which is just nonsense. Or saying that Indonesian "has no grammar."

I quite like Indonesian, it is the easiest language in the world for a Westerner to learn. There are almost no irregularities. Much of that is because the written form is only 70 years old. The written language has yet to diverge from spoken. Perhaps any peculiarities are removed when it is taught.

I'd say that the expressivity of Indonesian and English is about the same.

If you are curious, the linguists tell me the languages of Papua are the most difficult. Hungarian and Finnish are essentially central Asian so those are challenging.

Certainly English is widely spoken, but I wouldn't have said it is the "common" language of Malaysia.

I have been to restaurants in shopping malls where tourists never go and the menus were in English.

 

[Hornbein]

I don't know about putting too much emphasis on single words.
If you can string together a bunch of words, to make a super-large single word with a new meaning that can determined by adding up the meanings of the parts, than you can get a lot more useful (understandable) single words in your language.
Not sure if that's better than just a string of words to convey an equivalent meaning (from an language's operational point of view).

Yes I think it really doesn't make any difference if I have to use one word or four. It's just a fun sort of game to point out useful words that are missing from certain languages.

If something really is untranslatable to English, how could we discuss it?

 

[Hornbein]

Languages differ in how useful they are for singing. In my experience Xhosa is the most sonorous and beautiful when sung. Japanese isn't much use for that, so much so that a composer there invented the language of Hymmnos whose only purpose is to be sung. Japanese is great for punk rock. I quite like Tamil rap. German is ideal for comedy.

 

[sbrothy]

Upon trying to think about those, my only feeling is that those are not words. They are utterances, or sounds someone may make to show but not state a reaction.

Point taken. What about "welp" then?

 

[symbolipoint]

Point taken. What about "welp" then?

Let a linguist answer this one. I am unsure. My guess is if someone is saying "welp" very consciously, it is the same as a conversation filler, "well" and including the "p" from "help", as suggesting the other person continue filling or feed the conversation.

 

[Bystander]

Point taken. What about "welp" then?

"Well, Whelp/Pup/Youngster/Rookie?"

 

[sbrothy]

"Well, Whelp/Pup/Youngster/Rookie?"

I came across this word reading an old Peter Bagge comic. "Buddy Does Seattle" I think it was...

welp

Initially I thought it was an error but he's quite fond of it so it occurs throughout his comics. It was new to me but I'm guessing it's an expression predominantly used in daily speech?

 

[DaveC426913]

schweigen (German), which means being silent, but not nearly as passive as the English translation suggests. It is a kind of an active silence, a decision rather than a state.

reticent/reserved? - inclined to be silent or uncommunicative in speech.

 

[DaveC426913]

"Arigata meiwaku" (Japanese): 'Misplaced kindness' or 'unwelcome kindness'. I remember this one described as when someone does you an unwelcome favor which misfired, causing harm. In Swedish we have a word with roughly the same meaning, "björntjänst" (which roughly means "bear favor"):

Since both those terms are not single words, I'll take that as license for an English "term" of multiple words:

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

 

[fresh_42]

reticent/reserved? - inclined to be silent or uncommunicative in speech.

This is again passive, a part of a person's character. But even extrovert people can schweigen. It is the decision to remain silent instead of breaking the silence with small talk. It is literally an active verb in German. And to te best of my knowledge, there isn't an adequate English active verb.

 

[fresh_42]

By the way: What is the opposite of luck?

The dictionary gave me bad luck (two words), misfortune (too global and pathetic), infelicity (even more pathetic). I guess I could add "Pech" to the untranslatable words. It means the kind of bad luck you have on an everyday level: stumbling, in a lottery, someone detected your hidden intentions, etc.

And it allows the funny German abbreviation PP, persönliches Pech = personal bad luck.

 

[sbrothy]

Speaking of "untranslatable"... I'm from Denmark. A part of our national narrative (aimed at tourists, I'm sure) is that the word "hygge" (cozying? Having innocent family-oriented fun?) is unique to Denmark. This is ofcourse ludicrous as I'm sure people in other countries know how to "let the coziness rip".

There's a (very) tiny kernel of truth though as the word "hygge" can be used as both a verb, adjective, and with a little bending, a noun. Still, it always struck me as downright arrogant to imply that having a nice time with your friends and family is somehow unique to Denmark.

 

[fresh_42]

Speaking of "untranslatable"... I'm from Denmark. A part of our national narrative (aimed at tourists, I'm sure) is that the word "hygge" (cozying? Having innocent family-oriented fun?) is unique to Denmark. This is ofcourse ludicrous as I'm sure people in other countries know how to "let the coziness rip".

There's a (very) tiny kernel of truth though as the word "hygge" can be used as both a verb, adjective, and with a little bending, a noun. Still, it always struck me as downright arrogant to imply that having a nice time with your friends and family is somehow unique to Denmark.

I could have bet it was Lego, not hygge.

 

[Hornbein]

reticent/reserved? - inclined to be silent or uncommunicative in speech.

Reticent is only for people. Schweigen can apply to anything.

 

[Hornbein]

This is again passive, a part of a person's character. But even extrovert people can schweigen. It is the decision to remain silent instead of breaking the silence with small talk. It is literally an active verb in German. And to te best of my knowledge, there isn't an adequate English active verb.

Silence can be either active or passive. Silence! is something the Bad Guy is inclined to command.

 

[fresh_42]

Schweigen can apply to anything.

This is wrong. Schweigen can only somebody who could otherwise speak, ergo persons. The noun das Schweigen means the silence, but I was explicitly talking about the verb.

 

[fresh_42]

Silence can be either active or passive. Silence! is something the Bad Guy is inclined to command.

Wrong again. Silence is a noun, the command would be "Be silent", which is passive.

 

[Hornbein]

Wrong again. Silence is a noun, the command would be "Be silent", which is passive.

Well I guess when the Bad Guy guy with the armed guards shouts "Silence!" I should respond, "Such improper English. Sire."

 

[Hornbein]

This is wrong. Schweigen can only somebody who could otherwise speak, ergo persons. The noun das Schweigen means the silence, but I was explicitly talking about the verb.

Alles schweiget, Nachtigallen
locken mit süßen Melodien
Tränen ins Auge, Schwermut ins Herz.

 

[fresh_42]

Alles schweiget, Nachtigallen
locken mit süßen Melodien
Tränen ins Auge, Schwermut ins Herz.

In which case the nightingale is the acting person, or everybody, which means the verb is used as an active one. All do something, in particular the nightingale, namely schweigen. You said everything can schweigen. This is wrong, a tree or a chair cannot.

It is quite simple: You cannot translate "Ich schweige." except you describe it otherwise or use a passive verb. E.g. Google translates it as "I am silent." which is obviously passive.

schweigen = to be silent which is grammatically completely different. That was all I said, there is no correspondence in English. The different grammar implies a different use, and a different meaning.

Edit: "Sie wünschten vermutlich ich shchwiege!" The closest in meaning would be "You wished presumably I shut up!" but this is neither a correct translation nor very nice.

 

[Hornbein]

Indonesian does not have the words brother or sister. Instead they use adik [younger sibling] or kakak [older sibling]. It's partly because you address people older than yourself differently than younger people. When you meet someone often the first question is how old are you.

In Bali people don't usually tell you their name. Instead they give you a title which tells you both their caste and their birth order. In Balinese the different castes are addressed differently. It's so complicated that you have to learn it from earliest childhood to do it correctly. Posted notices and public announcements can't make this distinction so they are done in Indonesian.

If you want to say brother or sister its something like adik perumpuan [younger sibling who is female].

Westerners think that the double word is a plural. That can be but it is usually something else. More often it indicates something that is fake or a toy in a sort of cute way. Like a ship is a kapal so toy ship is a kapal-kapal. Or it can be a word, a dolphin is a lomba-lomba. Such things are always pronounced with accent on the first and last syllable, so KApal-kaPAL.

That reminds me of a sentence I learned from a third grade textbook. Mengapa membanding-bandingkan? [Why make comparisons?] As you can see there's no inhibition about long words. Instead one-syllable words are uncommon.

 

[atyy]

Alles schweiget, Nachtigallen
locken mit süßen Melodien
Tränen ins Auge, Schwermut ins Herz.

In which case the nightingale is the acting person, or everybody, which means the verb is used as an active one. All do something, in particular the nightingale, namely schweigen. You said everything can schweigen. This is wrong, a tree or a chair cannot.

All is silent, but not the nightingales that sing.

 

[atyy]

In the late 1990's, I worked as an ex-pat S/W contractor in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Although English is widely spoken there, I made an effort every day to learn at least one or two new words of Malay/Indonesian (they call it just "Bahasa").

Some of my fellow expats were rather arrogant and dismissive of Bahasa compared to English, citing the way it uses a double-word to express plural. Then one day I became aware that of the words "kita" and "kami" translate (naively) to "we". I asked a Malaysian colleague to explain the distinction, and he actually had to go away for a little while to think about it, then returned with an explanation.

I'm no longer sure, but I'd say "kita" means "everyone here" while "kami" means "our group."

Yes, that's essentially how it was explained to me.

Interesting! I know very badly tiny phrases of Malay from the Singapore national anthem and pledge, and these include "kita" and "kami", but I never knew the distinction. The national anthem is always sung in Malay, never in translation. My knowledge of Malay is essentially zero so I'm mostly singing sounds whose meaning I don't know, although I learned their meaning long ago in school. The pledge is usually said in English, but school children have to say it in the other official languages from time to time (we recite after a leader in that case, since most Singaporeans only know English and one of the other official languages).

National anthem: Mari kita rakyat Singapura
English translation: Come fellow Singaporeans

Pledge: We, the citizens of Singapore,
Malay translation: Kami, warganegara Singapura

 

[atyy]

There's a Malay word or part of a word "lah" that has been adopted into colloquial Singapore English (Singlish). I don't think it is translatable. It's in the national anthem "Majulah", but usually we use it to convey an informal tone.

Wikipedia explains:
"In Malay, 'lah' is used to change a verb into a command or to soften its tone, particularly when usage of the verb may seem impolite. For example, "to drink" is "minum", but "Here, drink!" is "minumlah". Similarly, 'lah' is frequently used with imperatives in Singlish, such as the command, "Drink lah!" (Come on, drink!)."

 

[Hornbein]

Interesting! I know very badly tiny phrases of Malay from the Singapore national anthem and pledge, and these include "kita" and "kami", but I never knew the distinction. The national anthem is always sung in Malay, never in translation. My knowledge of Malay is essentially zero so I'm mostly singing sounds whose meaning I don't know, although I learned their meaning long ago in school. The pledge is usually said in English, but school children have to say it in the other official languages from time to time (we recite after a leader in that case, since most Singaporeans only know English and one of the other official languages).

National anthem: Mari kita rakyat Singapura
English translation: Come fellow Singaporeans

Pledge: We, the citizens of Singapore,
Malay translation: Kami, warganegara Singapura

Would I be correct in guessing that more Singaporeans speak Chinese than Malaysian?

 

[Hornbein]

There's a Malay word or part of a word "lah" that has been adopted into colloquial Singapore English (Singlish). I don't think it is translatable. It's in the national anthem "Majulah", but usually we use it to convey an informal tone.

Wikipedia explains:
"In Malay, 'lah' is used to change a verb into a command or to soften its tone, particularly when usage of the verb may seem impolite. For example, "to drink" is "minum", but "Here, drink!" is "minumlah". Similarly, 'lah' is frequently used with imperatives in Singlish, such as the command, "Drink lah!" (Come on, drink!)."

Yes, its a friendly imperative. Then there's "dong" which like a friendly "duh", as in pointing out that something is obvious. Ice cream vendors on bicycles would play a song that went "lari dong" which means "run, obviously."

Then "aduh" when means ouch, oi veh, oops, and so forth. There's only that one exclamation, while English has quite a few. Well, there's "weh!" which for a while was very popular but didn't seem to mean anything. To me it was more like a nervous tick.

 

[atyy]

Would I be correct in guessing that more Singaporeans speak Chinese than Malaysian?

Yes, although a significant minority of Chinese speak Malay fluently, especially if they grew up in Malaysia or Indonesia.

 

[strangerep]

Then there's "dong" which like a friendly "duh", as in pointing out that something is obvious.

My favorite expression, which I used ONLY towards other expat programmers, was "Otak kelapa!".

 

[Hornbein]

My favorite expression, which I used ONLY towards other expat programmers, was "Otak kelapa!".

Too bad. Kepala kelapa would be a lot more stylish. :-)

 

[fresh_42]

Too bad. Kepala kelapa would be a lot more stylish. :-)

 

[DaveC426913]

There's a Malay word or part of a word "lah" that has been adopted into colloquial Singapore English (Singlish). I don't think it is translatable. It's in the national anthem "Majulah", but usually we use it to convey an informal tone.

Wikipedia explains:
"In Malay, 'lah' is used to change a verb into a command or to soften its tone, particularly when usage of the verb may seem impolite. For example, "to drink" is "minum", but "Here, drink!" is "minumlah". Similarly, 'lah' is frequently used with imperatives in Singlish, such as the command, "Drink lah!" (Come on, drink!)."

While not a direct translation, something that fills that same function is "please", to-wit:

"Drink! Please!"

 

[Mark44]

My wife and I did a walking tour in Slovenia about 10 years ago. Before the trip I studied Slovene for about 6 months. One English word, "we," has no direct translation in Slovene, because that language distinguishes between a group of two people vs. a group of three or more.

We (two people) - medva - literally "we two"
We (three or more) - me

The same concept applies to 2nd person -- you two vs. you (a group of three or more), and 3rd person -- they (two) vs. they (three or more).

While most languages (at least the ones I'm familiar with) distinguish between singular pronouns (e.g. in English I, you, he, she, it) and plural pronouns (we, you, they), Slovene also has the concept of dual pronouns, a concept that was once present in all Slavic languages, but persists now only in Slovene.

 

[green slime]

My understanding is that there are no "untranslatable words." That is words encapsulate concepts in a language that can be described in any other human language. It may take a rather lot of words to adequately describe the concept, but it can be done.

For example, there are languages that lacks words for colours, only referring (for example) to light or dark. Yet the concept of "green" can be described to a speaker of the language as "light like the grass" (for example).

 

[Astronuc]

Yet the concept of "green" can be described to a speaker of the language as "light like the grass" (for example).

Or it could mean brown or tan (sandy colour) depending on location and time of year.

 

[Rive]

It may take a rather lot of words to adequately describe the concept, but it can be done.

I think that's the point. If you have to include a lengthy description in a translation (of some art or even just a sentence) than it's no longer a translation but ... commentary, maybe? So the translation actually failed.

I know there is a special kind of 'translation' when all the notes and references are meticulously included (I don't know how this is called) but again, that has a different title. (*)

Ps of (*): Critical edition. When the language or the context is so foreign, or the source is so broken/diverse that for better understanding all the relevant stuff included - so a few pages of ancient perchament is enough to fill a whole book.

 

[DaveC426913]

Or it could mean brown or tan (sandy colour) depending on location and time of year.

Indeed. And that's not just facetiousness.
'Light like the grass' is a very poor description for 'green'. It's not a translation.

 

[Keith_McClary]

It may take a rather lot of words to adequately describe the concept, but it can be done.

"Dictionary Paradox":
The first word in the dictionary is defined in terms of following words.
Also the second word, and so on.
Therefore, all words can be defined in terms of “Zyzzyva”.

 

[PeroK]

My understanding is that there are no "untranslatable words." That is words encapsulate concepts in a language that can be described in any other human language. It may take a rather lot of words to adequately describe the concept, but it can be done.

That assumes that all languages have sufficient words to describe everything. If a language had only two words - "yes" and "no", say - then a lot of words couldn't be translated into that language.

 

[DaveC426913]

. If a language had only two words - "yes" and "no", say - then a lot of words couldn't be translated into that language

No no no no
No
Yes no yes yes

is "Hey" in Morse code. :)

^{(And a song by the Human Beinz)}

 

[BWV]

Apparently nothing is untranslatable

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/feb/05/finnegans-wake-china-james-joyce-hit

Backed by an elaborate billboard ad campaign, the first volume of "Fennigen de Shouling Ye" sold out its first run of 8,000 copies and reached number two on a prestigious bestseller list in Shanghai, second only to a biography of Deng Xiaoping.

 

[PeroK]

Apparently nothing is untranslatable

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2013/feb/05/finnegans-wake-china-james-joyce-hit

Someone told me once that one way to understand Finnegan's Wake was to get a translation and what the translator had done gave a big clue to what it all meant. I recall he had a French translation, rather than Chinese.

I should say I've never tried to read it myself.

 

[Hornbein]

John V. Kelleher, one of my professors at Harvard, was a prominent Joyce scholar. He had grown up in Dublin so he could understand it. But he thought FWake was just a mishmosh of in jokes so he didn't like it at all.

I personally couldn't get past the first page. I think Dubliners is one of the greatest works of fiction, but it was all downhill from there. I guess that was too easy for him so he got bored with it. Kelleher's favorite was Portrait of the Artist.

John Coltrane was like that too. I don't know that anyone listens much to his late stuff. Respect yes, listen not.

 

[pinball1970]

Or it could mean brown or tan (sandy colour) depending on location and time of year.

Green leaves means the same thing. Autumn leaves. We should be safe with colour. If the territory is dramatically different a qualifier can inserted when teaching a child regarding the object. Then green is green. Brown is brown.
Otherwise adjectives would not be good enough.

 

[green slime]

That assumes that all languages have sufficient words to describe everything. If a language had only two words - "yes" and "no", say - then a lot of words couldn't be translated into that language.

That is not a language.

 

[PeroK]

That is not a language.

I guess not. What about three words: "yes", "no" and "maybe"?

 

[green slime]

Or it could mean brown or tan (sandy colour) depending on location and time of year.

'twas merely meant as a short example. Sorry for attempting to be brief. Depending on the location and or time of year, it could of course be expanded, and is. In general if the concept is understood, then it is good enough translation.

Linguists do not consider any word "untranslatable." That is something for laypeople to cuddle themselves with. That some words or concepts may be more difficult to translate, is a given. But nothing is untranslatable.

 

[Rive]

We should be safe with colour.

Sure

Ps.: to avoid confusion: I don't know if that cow on the picture is 'real' (I hope not), but I did hear childcare staff complaining about children knowing cows to be purple (due the chocolate, yes: since that's the only form of cow they have seen that age).

 

[green slime]

I guess not. What about three words: "yes", "no" and "maybe"?

Still no. Here's a hint: words are not the sole component of a language.