What else could the LHC accelerate?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the capabilities of the Large Hadron Collider (LHC) in terms of the types of particles it can accelerate, including protons, lead ions, and potentially other nuclei or electrons. Participants explore the implications of accelerating different particles, the reasons for choosing specific ions, and the effects of collisions involving various particle types.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether lead ions are fully stripped of electrons and if partially ionized lead ions could be accelerated, along with the implications of such a scenario.
  • There is curiosity about the possibility of accelerating alpha particles or other nuclei and the rationale behind the preference for lead ions over lighter or heavier nuclei.
  • Participants discuss whether colliding neutrons alongside protons produces unique results compared to proton-only collisions, and the potential benefits of colliding alpha particles.
  • One participant notes that the LHC cannot accelerate neutrons and can only work with charged particles, raising questions about the charge-to-mass ratio required for acceleration.
  • Another participant mentions that protons have the highest charge-to-mass ratio among nuclei, while lead has one of the lowest, suggesting that in principle, the LHC could accelerate various stable nuclei if the necessary infrastructure were in place.
  • There is a reference to the study of quark-gluon plasma as a reason for using heavy ions like lead, with a suggestion that lead-208 is optimal due to its stability and composition.
  • Concerns are raised about the feasibility of accelerating electrons, particularly regarding their charge-to-mass ratio and the logistics of feeding them into the accelerator.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of agreement and uncertainty regarding the types of particles the LHC can accelerate, with no clear consensus on the necessity or feasibility of accelerating other nuclei or electrons. The discussion remains unresolved on several points, particularly regarding the implications of different particle collisions.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on the availability of particle sources and the specific hardware required for different types of particles. There is also an acknowledgment of the charge-to-mass ratio as a critical factor in determining which particles can be effectively accelerated.

teve
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The LHC accelerates protons and lead ions. Are all the electrons stripped from the lead ions? If so, could lead ions with some electrons still be accelerated? Would there be any reason to?

Could the LHC accelerate alpha particles or other nuclei? Why lead ions over lighter or heaver nuclei?

Do colliding neutrons produce anything that colliding protons only do not? Why not collide alpha particles if neutrons are to be included? I would think that colliding lead ions would produce a larger mess of particles to sort out. Or is it all the same if protons are clumped together or spread out within a bunch (except for neutrons in the mix)? What results come from colliding lead ions that does not come from colliding single protons?

Could the LHC accelerate and collide electrons? If so, to what speed or energy?
 
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teve said:
The LHC accelerates protons and lead ions. Are all the electrons stripped from the lead ions? If so, could lead ions with some electrons still be accelerated? Would there be any reason to?

Could the LHC accelerate alpha particles or other nuclei? Why lead ions over lighter or heaver nuclei?

Do colliding neutrons produce anything that colliding protons only do not? Why not collide alpha particles if neutrons are to be included? I would think that colliding lead ions would produce a larger mess of particles to sort out. Or is it all the same if protons are clumped together or spread out within a bunch (except for neutrons in the mix)? What results come from colliding lead ions that does not come from colliding single protons?

Could the LHC accelerate and collide electrons? If so, to what speed or energy?

The binding energies of atomic electrons are on the eV scale, which is negligible compared to the TeV scale of LHC collisions. Any electrons would be irrelevant spectators. The machine will be tuned for a certain charge to mass ratio. Any atoms that were not fully ionized would have the wrong q/m and would not make it through the machine.

The LHC can't collide neutrons. It can only accelerate charged particles.

For the reasons why the LHC can't accelerate electrons, see the last paragraph of this section of this WP article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremstrahlung#Dipole_approximation

Someone more well versed in accelerator-based particle physics might be better suited to answer you question about why intermediate-mass nuclei are not being used. I doubt that it's an accelerator issue.
 
I know neutrons can't be accelerated. I meant colliding neutrons when carried along with protons.
 
Thanks. I think I can see the issue with charge to mass ratio. Then the next question would be what range of charge to mass ratio for particles can LHC accelerate.
 
Since protons have the highets charge-to-mass ratio of any nucleus, and Pb is among the lowest (I believe it is the lowest for stable nuclei; if not, it's close), in principle it can accelerate pretty much any stable nucleus.

However, you need a source, and at present the LHC has only two: protons and lead. To accelerate iodine or calcium or something else would mean someone would have to build additional hardware.
 
Found this: http://www.symmetrymagazine.org/breaking/2010/11/05/the-skinny-on-the-lhcs-heavy-ions/

Apparently heavy ions allow quark-gluon plasma to be studied. The lead used is the heaviest stable lead isotope, 208, purified at a dollar per milligram. A few grams is probably a lifetime supply.

I am guessing lead 208 is used since it has the most protons and neutrons lumped together while being stable. Is there any reason to go with anything less?

I am guessing electrons could not be accelerated because they would have to be fed in the opposite direction at the various stages of acceleration even if charge to mass ratio was not an issue.
 
Vanadium 50 said:
Since protons have the highets charge-to-mass ratio of any nucleus, and Pb is among the lowest (I believe it is the lowest for stable nuclei; if not, it's close), in principle it can accelerate pretty much any stable nucleus.

However, you need a source, and at present the LHC has only two: protons and lead. To accelerate iodine or calcium or something else would mean someone would have to build additional hardware.

I assume it's a positive ion source. I believe positive ion sources are really not all that specialized. You can pretty much feed in anything you like. (Negative ion sources are different. Some negative ions are easy and some are impossible. He- requires qualitatively different hardware.) I suspect that if you put in tin instead of lead, you could very easily get a beam at the LHC. I'd guess that there's simply no strong physics case for studying collisions at intermediate masses.
 

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