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What if? (concerning electrical induction)

  1. Feb 18, 2009 #1
    I posted a thread thats still visible concerning homopolar designs. This thread is spin off from it and I hope I get more feed back here than I did there.

    What if it was possible to spin both the induction magnets of a generator and the armature in the same direction, at the same velocity by fixing both mechanically and still produce an electrical current? This is a completely fictional question. I'm not asking for anyone to tell me thats it rediculous or that "you can't do that" so why ask. I'm asking for you to use your imagination in this question and explore the possibilities of the answere.

    There is a reason for this and I will of course elaberate further on the purpose for this question as the thread progresses.

    Thanks to all who take the time to respond...
  2. jcsd
  3. Feb 18, 2009 #2


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    Ummm, part of a Rube-Goldberg machine? Jeez I don't know. This is one of the strangest questions I've seen posted here on PF. Why don't you take your generator to the North or South pole, set it on end and see what happens? Something has to move relative to something else in order for anything to happen. I don't understand how you can ask us to use our imagination with this type of question. It's like asking me to use my imagination by thinking about what would happen if I hit my hand really hard with a hammer. I know what will happen, it will hurt, end of story.-
    Edit: Please elaborate as you have stated you would.
  4. Feb 18, 2009 #3
    I understand it may be a strange question... I pointed it out very clearly that it was strange by indicating that the question was in fact fictional and that it contradicts conventional ideas concerning how we produce electricity mechanically...

    Sarcasm is not welcome in this thread... I would thank you kindly not to engage in sarcastic and inflamitory comments as they only frustrate people.

    If the induction magnets are in motion and the armature is in motion there is only one thing that is not in motion... I leave it to you to figure that out. Then you will figure out what it is I am trying to bring to the surface...
  5. Feb 18, 2009 #4
    I can't figure out how flux lines would still be cut in order to produce current with that sort of configuration.

    Only one thing not in motion? Would that be the housing? I have no idea where to go with this.
  6. Feb 18, 2009 #5
    Magnetic flux lines are independant of the magnet that creats them! Moving a magnet through space only creates new lines of flux in the surrounding space. The feild does not "move" in the sense that it shares the same space as the magnet that creates it....

    I am not trying to be difficult.. Truelly I am not.

    What force works to slow a typical electrical generator?
  7. Feb 18, 2009 #6


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    Seriously how can a person answer this on the level that you have proposed? You say the armature is in motion and the magnets are in motion. Ok, fine. Relative to what? In my 'smart aleck' North/South pole scenario they are in motion relative to the sun for one, and lots of other things in space, but not relative to what they are setting on. If there is something you are trying to say please do so. This whole thread appears as some sort of riddle.
    As to what force works to slow a generator? If I can recall back many years ago the back EMF causes increased flux lines on one side of the conductor and a decrease on the other side. Now I'll leave YOU to figure the rest out.
    Edit: Please show a link to your other thread.
  8. Feb 19, 2009 #7
    I spelled it out here very clearly what I was trying to get accross...

    If you are not interested in intertaining my question and exploring the possibilites of this question then please dont bother posting.

    The idea of removing any backward torque on a mechanical system that produces electricity should pose some interesting possibilities. What I am trying to discuss in this thread are those possibilities....

    I ask this question because I have recently conducted a series of experiments that points to this possibility. If it is possible, what kind of potential benifits could this type of system have over conventional systems?
  9. Feb 19, 2009 #8


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    Seriously, if you need to ask what kind of doors would be opened if we were able to produce electricity with no input torque on a generator then I don't believe any experiments you have done mean anything at all. What I mean by this is that you should not need to ask the question if you have thoroughly performed said experiments. If you have a firm grasp of electricity you should know the answer to your question before you even performed the experiments.
    Where is the link I asked about? Please provide it before this thread is locked.
  10. Feb 19, 2009 #9

    I am supprised at your abbrupt and, quite frankly, rude posts.

    I dont want your opinions if they are not on toppic. And yours have not been, short of bashing me for not providing you with the kind of info you think I should. Please dont post here again unless its going to be about the topic at hand. If the thread is locked its because of you.

    I started this thread hoping to stimulate some thought and interaction between members concerning the possibilities of a unique meathod for producing mechanical energy. My posts have been clear enough to give anyone who actually reads them well enough to comprehend them, the information they need to get involved in this thread....

    Homopolar generators produce a measurable current with out backward torque on the system, as the induction magnets and the conductor (typically a copper disk of some form or fasion) can be physically fixed to one another. The only draw back to this meathod of producing electricity is it is usually accompanied by very HIGH DC current values which renders them useless for most applications....

    I have and am currently conducting experiments that are exploring this form of electrical induction and have found in those experiments posible alternatives to the disk design that may lead to the production of practical currents through the incorperation of induction coils instead of an induction disk, that can be fixed to the induction magnets.

    That being said I would kindly ask that if your not going to post constructively and on topic, with courtesy and respect to this communities members then please don't post at all. I do have an interest in exploring the possibilities of my findings.

    Also on a side note... U-Tube links will be available shortly so that the experiments I conducted can be seen and used to help you visualize the logical steps I have taken in this evolutionary process so far.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2009
  11. Feb 19, 2009 #10


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    I'm going to disagree with you as tactfully as I can. I don't believe that a homopolar generator will produce power without having increased torque on the input shaft. I know there are claims all over the internet that agree with what you say, but I don't believe they are true. I do realize that the magnet can move with the disk and still generate power. But this does not mean that they do not require more torque when more power is drawn from them. You are correct in saying that these machines generate very high currents with very low voltages.
    Now, lets take break from that and discuss what would happen if such a machine were possible. Firstly, all transmission lines, power generating facilities, substations, etc. as we know them would go away. If we can draw vast amounts of power from a machine with little input torque, each neighborhood would have one or several, whichever is convenient, of these machines driven off of the wind or some other source and draw all the power we need from them with no consequence of further torque requirements. Heck lets just make this thing power itself with a conventional electric motor. Do you see where this is going? Perpetual motion. Not going to happen.
    If you find a generator that does not require torque to generate a current then you have also most likely found a motor that inputs power and delivers no torque. I wonder what would happen if you hooked them together? :wink:
  12. Feb 19, 2009 #11
    ooooohhh... this is about overunity machines?
  13. Feb 19, 2009 #12
    If the induction magnet and the induction coils are physically attached to each other, knowing that the backward torque on the system comes from these two bodies being seperated, where then, would the backward torque originate from?

    Please understand that my experiments have confirmed that they can be physically attached to one another and still produce a measured current.... I have conducted several different experiments using different configurations on magnet and conductor to verify and understand the physics of what is happening in these types of devices...

    Overunity is real. It is illustrated by the S.M.O.T.(Small Magnetic Overunity Toy). Look it up. It uses increased (permanent feromagnetic) field potentials to put a steel ball in motion and keep it in motion with zero imput from any outside source.

    Perpetual motion is theoritical. No mechanical device can achieve perpetual motion. Not because the energy is not out there but because of the inherent limitations associated with frictional damage.

    I am not suggesting perpetual motion but rather suggesting that there may be an alternative source of energy available to be exploited and we only need to figure out how to tap into it. Just because we dont understand it doesnt mean we cant or shouldnt explore it.

    I ask again if the induction magnets and the conductors are fixed to one another, where will the backward torque come from?
  14. Feb 19, 2009 #13
    yeah, it doesn't work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Magnetic_Overunity_Toy
  15. Feb 19, 2009 #14


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    The magnets and disk can rotationally be attached to each other and still have the machine generate power because the brush that contacts the outside of the disk is what counts. Do a bit of googling and I'm sure you will get the explanation.
    Overunity is real? Have your experiments proven that the torque does not increase with load? Or have your experiments just reinforced what we already know which is that the magnet can move with the disk? Just because the magnet can move with the disk does not mean the backward torque goes away.
  16. Feb 19, 2009 #15
    That article is wrong.... I have personally seen the rail system used to bring the steel ball back to the starting point..... its simply a circular rail system that guides the steel ball around 360 degrees after it has "run off" the top of the magnetic elevator. Its out there and Wikipedia is not the end all know all of its own articles..

  17. Feb 19, 2009 #16
    Have you ever seen the ball going back to the starting point ?
  18. Feb 19, 2009 #17

    I would ask you the same kind of question. Have you conducted any experiments with homopolar designs? Have you seen them in action in person? I have... My experiments have lead me to conclude that it may be possible to incorperate a coiled conducter that acts in much the same way as a typical coil based generator works but with the ability to fix the coils to the magnets where by elliminating the counter acting torque that is UNIQUE to the independant motion between the induction mangent and armature of standard induction systems. It is because of my experimental observations that I have come this conclusion.

    I wonder what kind of experimental observations you have made regarding any of your conclusions. Education never ever trumps experience...

    I am not suggesting I have found or discovered any overunity designs... I am suggesting, through experimentation, that a different and new method of electrical induction may exist. I have brought this to this forum so that I might get some insight into this kind of induction system and maybe talk seriously about the implications it could have.

    If you have had some experimental experience concerning homopolar designs I would very much like to hear about it. If you are interested bashing people for thinking out of the box, stay out of this thread please.

  19. Feb 19, 2009 #18

    Funny thing is its not very remarkable to watch... But it most certainly returns to the starting point and continues on with the cycle.. If you have the time there are some extensive articles written on the subject that describe mathematically how it works.

  20. Feb 19, 2009 #19
    confused one, you should really can the attitude. your thread is going to get locked anyway because you're spouting nonsense about violating physical laws.
  21. Feb 19, 2009 #20
    So, are you saying you have already seen a perpetual motion machine in action? :yuck:

    Or are you just speculating about it?
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