What if the Higgs is not found by LHC and Tev, nor anything else

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of not discovering the Higgs boson at the LHC or Tevatron, exploring alternative theories and models in particle physics, particularly in relation to electroweak symmetry breaking (EWB), unitarity, and the potential need for revisions in quantum mechanics (QM).

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose technicolor models as alternatives to the Higgs mechanism, suggesting they could predict new observations at LHC energies.
  • Concerns are raised about the violation of unitarity if the Higgs or a similar mechanism is not found, potentially necessitating a revision of QM.
  • Several hypotheses are suggested regarding the implications of not finding the Higgs, including the possibility of no true electroweak unification, the existence of neutrino condensates, or the idea that all particles may be composite.
  • Some participants express hope that not finding the Higgs could lead to a more exciting and dynamic field of particle physics.
  • There is a discussion about the necessity of supersymmetry (SUSY) and its implications for future research, with some arguing that the existence of SUSY is crucial for many theoretical frameworks.
  • Questions are raised about the properties of the weak force above unification, including whether it is infinite range or short range.
  • Some participants assert that if the LHC does not find SUSY, it would not logically imply that SUSY does not exist, as other unknown mechanisms could be at play.
  • There is a request for clarification on what constitutes "indirect evidence" for the Higgs boson.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views, with some advocating for the likelihood of finding the Higgs and others exploring alternative theories. There is no consensus on the implications of not finding the Higgs, with multiple competing perspectives remaining unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the limitations of current theories and the potential for new ideas to emerge if the Higgs is not discovered. The discussion highlights dependencies on definitions and unresolved questions regarding the nature of unitarity and the weak force.

  • #31
tom.stoer said:
It depends what you call gluons.

If you restrict this term to massless plane wave states of the gluon field, then I agree. But if you construct the QCD Hilbert space of physical states as the Fock space restricted by the Gauss law constraint in order to ensure gauge invariance, then you can construct color singulet "gluonic" operators on this space; you have a generic description of what "gluons" are, namely states in this physical subspace created ny gluonic operators. Of course the plane wave states are no longer part of this physical subspace as they violate the Gauss law.

So when I am talking about gluons I do not restrict them to plane waves (as seen in deep inelastic scattering = in the limit of asymptotoc freedom) but I mean the full, non-perturbative gluon field in QCD.

I agree with your non-perturbative definition. Now, I have to suppose that some dependence on the coupling is in these states. You should recover ordinary plane wave description when the coupling goes to zero. The states you get when the coupling goes to infinity are massive. This I mean by a gluon getting a mass. Classically you can see this in the following way. Let us consider the massless scalar field with equation

\partial^2\phi+\lambda\phi^3=0.

This has an exact solution

\phi(x)=\mu\left(\frac{2}{\lambda}\right)^\frac{1}{4}{\rm sn}(p\cdot x+\theta,i)

being sn a Jacobi elliptic function, \mu and \theta two integration constants. This holds provided the following dispersion relation holds

p^2=\mu^2\left(\frac{\lambda}{2}\right)^\frac{1}{2}

and so this massless field, due to the presence of a finite self-interaction, gives a massive solution. When you take the limit of the coupling going to zero you recover the ordinary perturbed massless field. Classically, you observe a similar situation for the Yang-Mills field provided the gauge coupling is taken to go to infinity.
 
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  • #32
there is no evidence that the hiiggs boson actually exists, the master equation says so but supposably the higgs could just be a version of the tangled up calibi-yau spaces or effects of a different kind of gravity
saying thius i personly agree that the higgs exists, but i am just outlining other possibilitys.
we canjnot simply decide quantum mechanis is wrong unless we try and look at in a different way if we don't find it. :)
 
  • #33
ensabah6 said:
if e-w symmetry, SUSY symmetry, antimatter-matter symmetry can be broken, couldn't chiral symmetry be broken?

The problem with mass in the SM is that chiral symmetry is broken. The SU(2) interaction in the EW sector only "sees" left chiral fermion fields; but, Dirac mass terms necessarily involve both right and left chiral fields (in a chirally symmetric way). Thus, a Dirac mass cannot be SU(2) invariant. The solution in the SM is to spontaneously generate fermion masses using the same mechanism that spontaneously breaks the SU(2) symmetry.
 
  • #34
ensabah6 said:
Technicolor models offer ways to break EWB that do not involve higgs, but do predict new observations at LHC energies.

Based on precision WW scattering, unitarity would be violated without the Higgs mechanism.

So if the Higgs, or something that plays its role, is not found, unitarity is violated which may mean QM needs to be revised.

If the Higgs, or something like it, is not found at LHC/TEV what would be the most Nobel-prize winning route

1- reformulate QM,
2- QM is wrong, unitarity is not preserved
3- maybe there is no true Electro-weak unification
4- consider other sources of Higgs field like neutrino condensates? perhaps dark energy?
5 perhaps preons or all particles are composites?


Maybe NOT finding the Higgs is a lot like not finding the luminerous aether.

GHOST FIELD

One could consider just a background ghost field (term) which is useful in the calculations, but has no physicality to it.
 

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