B What is empirically known about the shape and size of the Universe?

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The discussion centers on the challenges of understanding the size and shape of the universe, emphasizing that empirical knowledge is limited. While the Big Bang theory is the mainstream model, there are uncertainties regarding whether the universe is flat, open, or closed. Current evidence suggests the universe is close to flat and has a minimum diameter of approximately 96 billion light years. The conversation highlights the complexity of general relativity and how it affects our understanding of spatial geometry, with intrinsic curvature being a key concept. Ultimately, the nature of the universe's geometry remains a topic of ongoing investigation, with many questions still unanswered.
  • #31
Tom Arkwright said:
Admired the epic reply.
If it becomes an article, consider addressing whether infinity is observable. If not, why are we talking about it??
A poster above said, "...implies infini..." but not if infinity cannot be observed.
We are talking science: complete, consistent, and correct.
Whether or not infinity is observable is irrelevant. The options for the extent of the universe are

o finite and bounded --- believed extraordinarily unlikely because it requires weird physics at the edge and defies the Cosmological principle
o finite but unbounded --- no center, no edge, fits the Cosmological Principle
o infinite (and therefor unbounded) --- no center, no edge, fits the Cosmological Principle

So there are really only two possibilities. Would you have us not talk about one of the two just because you don't like the fact that it is not observable?
 
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  • #32
Drakkith said:
Our education system gives people the tools they need to perform real work in their chosen field. Contrary to your claim, it does not create "convergent thinkers who are blind to other ideas", it creates people with the skills and knowledge necessary to solve problems and develop new, useful theories. You might have been able to get away with not being trained during the early days of classical physics, but relativity, quantum physics, the theories based on them, and nearly all technological developments in the last 200 years were developed by mainstream physicists, engineers, and other scientists. I cannot begin to overstate how important mainstream science has been to the world, and your criticism is both unfounded and incredibly naive given that the methods by which we are communicating right now, the internet and modern computers, are only possible because of our mainstream educational system and scientific pursuits.
If you move between disciplines you will discover different thinking models. Yes mainstream science has made incredible progress, yes we need hard proof of theories, but when you are inside a thinking mode box you do not realize how constrained your outlook is! Convergent thinkers all think alike and are blind to alternative approaches. Methods of communication are many and varied but are of no use if the recipients are not listening.
 
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  • #33
webb202 said:
If you move between disciplines you will discover different thinking models. Yes mainstream science has made incredible progress, yes we need hard proof of theories, but when you are inside a thinking mode box you do not realize how constrained your outlook is! Convergent thinkers all think alike and are blind to alternative approaches. Methods of communication are many and varied but are of no use if the recipients are not listening.

At first glance this appears to be an informative and thoughtful post. However, a deeper look at the post and your previous posts on this topic reveals it to be shallow and lacking in my opinion. Specifically, it relies on the assumption that scientists are 'convergent thinkers' who are blind to alternative approaches. I strongly disagree with this. Scientists' ways of thinking are as varied as their personalities, which range an entire spectrum just like everyone else.

What education does is to provide scientists with proven tools and methods to help them identify new phenomena and systematically form an organized, coherent, and self-consistent explanation for these phenomena. These tools and methods encompass everything from mathematics classes to lab reports to using Excel. You might as well say that the tools in a wood working shop constrain someone's thinking about what they can make out of wood. Instead, it is how things are made that is constrained, not what. So it is in science.

webb202 said:
Most of our greatest leaps forward in knowledge have been through the fusion of ideas outside the 'mainstream'.

No they haven't. Practically all of our 'leaps forward' have come directly from mainstream theories. Meaning that you introduce one or two postulates to a mainstream theory and see what the results would be.

Quantum Mechanics: the direct result of quantizing energy, momentum, angular momentum, and other properties from classical physics at the atomic and subatomic scale. This did not come right out of the blue. Many different experiments at the time indicated that classical physics was missing something, and it was only with Max Planck's idea of quantizing the energy of a black body that these problems began to be solved. If you look at the history of QM you'll find that each step towards the development of a working theory was the direct result of someone working on a known problem in classical physics.

Special Relativity: the direct result of Einstein solving known problems in classical electrodynamics by introducing the postulates of the invariant speed of light and the principle of relativity. Both of these were already supported by contemporary experiments, such as the Michelson-Morley experiment.

General Relativity: the direct result of Einstein recognizing that objects in free fall under the influence of gravity would measure zero acceleration and behave as if they were moving inertially. IE objects in free fall are in inertial motion and objects not in free fall (such as a book on a shelf) are not in inertial motion. Once recognized, the basics of GR follow naturally from this property. Again, this was a short but complicated insight that follows directly from classical physics.

So which of our leaps forward have been the result of the fusion of non-mainstream ideas? If you think that the above are examples of non-mainstream ideas, then everything is a non-mainstream idea until it is fully explained by science. But in that case science is already doing exactly what you say it isn't, which is routinely providing non-mainstream ideas to solve problems.

One should note that none, absolutely none of these advancements would have been made without an in-depth understanding of contemporary classical physics and the advanced mathematics given to these scientists by their own education system. Not too bad for men supposedly close-minded and blind to alternative approaches.

I'm sorry but I think your idea of science and scientists is one of a caricature. A shallow, one-dimensional idea of men in lab coats scribbling equations on a whiteboard while oblivious to the rest of the world. Of bumbling, socially-inept nerds who can't understand girls or poetry. Scientists are not inflexible robots that have a short circuit if something falls outside their limited programming. They are real people with an enormous range of backgrounds and interests, giving them, as a whole, as wide and flexible an outlook on the world as any other group of people, if not more.

Education tends to open one's mind, not close it.
 
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