B What is the center of the universe?

[Wanted]

It depends entirely upon your notion of the meaning of the word center... and some understanding of what the universe potentially is.

If you're defining center as a point in which everything moves away from in any direction then there is no center. In this case everywhere would fit the definition Unless you're on the edge of moving into never explored empty area of the universe. This would mean you appear to be at the center since no matter where you are everything moves away from you in all directions... unless you were observing from the 'expanding edge'.

If you're defining center as the origin from which everything started moving from then it'd be in the origin of where the singularities expansion would be assuming it is equal in all directions since it wasn't an explosion in an empty space but rather everywhere at all once exploding. But this is more of a geometric center like below

If you're defining the center as the midway point between all 'expanding edges' then it would be indeterminable by us (our and probably any possible technology) by geometrically on a XYZ 3 dimensional plane (Left Edge + Right Edge)/ 2, (Front Edge + Back Edge)/ 2, (Top Edge + Bottom Edge)/ 2... or some other ambiguous means of taking indeterminable XYZ 3 dimensional plane coordinates and averaging them... one such other way would be to take the x,y,z coordinate of every proton (or whatever have you) in the universe and averaging it together.

You know theory shouldn't be limited just because communication, language, and definitions are. I'm sure this is a lot more helpful to understand than 'there is no center'.

When the real question is what does center even mean, and is it useful to know... probably not.

 

[Drakkith]

If you're defining center as a point in which everything moves away from in any direction then there is no center. In this case everywhere would fit the definition Unless you're on the edge of moving into never explored empty area of the universe. This would mean you appear to be at the center since no matter where you are everything moves away from you in all directions... unless you were observing from the 'expanding edge'.

There is no edge. No matter where you are in the universe, everything will appear to be expanding outwards, moving away from you at an increasing velocity as the distance between you and the object.

If you're defining center as the origin from which everything started moving from then it'd be in the origin of where the singularities expansion would be assuming it is equal in all directions since it wasn't an explosion in an empty space but rather everywhere at all once exploding. But this is more of a geometric center like below

Again, there is no point of origin.

If you're defining the center as the midway point between all 'expanding edges' then it would be indeterminable by us (our and probably any possible technology) by geometrically on a XYZ 3 dimensional plane (Left Edge + Right Edge)/ 2, (Front Edge + Back Edge)/ 2, (Top Edge + Bottom Edge)/ 2... or some other ambiguous means of taking indeterminable XYZ 3 dimensional plane coordinates and averaging them... one such other way would be to take the x,y,z coordinate of every proton (or whatever have you) in the universe and averaging it together.

Since there is no expanding edge, there is no absolute center.

Some links:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/astronomy/bigbang.html#misconceptions
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmolog.htm (see the FAQ)

 

[Wanted]

There is no edge. No matter where you are in the universe, everything will appear to be expanding outwards, moving away from you at an increasing velocity as the distance between you and the object.

You can't have things moving away from you in a direction in which things are not occupied. If you happened to be there. Sure you'd have things moving away from you in one direction... but not every. Edge simply means you are ahead of anything else in the direction you are traveling and will cease to see anything new in the direction you're traveling because you have already passed everything or were already ahead to begin with.

Again, there is no point of origin.

I don't describe the origin as a 'point' .There is no point of origin since it encompasses everything, however there is a geometric average from the expanding edges assuming expansion is equal in all directions.

Since there is no expanding edge, there is no absolute center.

There has to be an expanding edge because the universe is constantly expanding in unoccupied space. There is no absolute center because center has many definitions and fulfilling these definitions requires indeterminable data or doesn't have a center.

Some links:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/astronomy/bigbang.html#misconceptions
http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmolog.htm (see the FAQ)

The first link explains why the TBB is not a point, which is not a claim I am making.
The second links explains a list of things only a few of which I can find directly relevant (would help if you were specific). The relevant section I found was http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/nocenter.html which states there is no center based on the predication that center is defined as a point in which everything moves away from which I agree it does not have.

 

[phinds]

You can't have things moving away from you in a direction in which things are not occupied. If you happened to be there. Sure you'd have things moving away from you in one direction... but not every. Edge simply means you are ahead of anything else in the direction you are traveling and will cease to see anything new in the direction you're traveling because you have already passed everything or were already ahead to begin with.

I don't describe the origin as a 'point' .There is no point of origin since it encompasses everything, however there is a geometric average from the expanding edges assuming expansion is equal in all directions.

There has to be an expanding edge because the universe is constantly expanding in unoccupied space. There is no absolute center because center has many definitions and fulfilling these definitions requires indeterminable data or doesn't have a center.

The first link explains why the TBB is not a point, which is not a claim I am making.
The second links explains a list of things only a few of which I can find directly relevant (would help if you were specific). The relevant section I found was http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/nocenter.html which states there is no center based on the predication that center is defined as a point in which everything moves away from which I agree it does not have.

This stuff about the edge is nonsense. There is no edge. You need to re-read Drakkith's post #32 and study cosmology until you understand that what he said is correct.

 

[Wanted]

This stuff about the edge is nonsense. There is no edge. You need to re-read Drakkith's post #32 and study cosmology until you understand that what he said is correct.

There is potential for falsity in any argument, however I cannot locate any in post #32.

It's easy, and entirely pointless, to just say something is nonsense with absolutely no counter argument.

Edge as in a boundary is not what I mean at all... there is obviously no physical edge wall in unlimited open void space.

Universe as in empty space is infinite but the matter, energy, and other non-void components that occupies it is not.

If your model for the universe is a spherical one then if you traveled in one direction long enough you would end up where you started similar to as if you sailed around the world, but this is an assumption... it's much more rational that the void of the universe expands endlessly in all directions and traveling in a single direction could never bring you back to where your voyage began.

Edge refers to expansion of nonvoid into the void.

 

[Drakkith]

You can't have things moving away from you in a direction in which things are not occupied. If you happened to be there. Sure you'd have things moving away from you in one direction... but not every. Edge simply means you are ahead of anything else in the direction you are traveling and will cease to see anything new in the direction you're traveling because you have already passed everything or were already ahead to begin with.

Again, there is no edge. You can travel as far as you like but you will never find an edge. You will only keep finding matter in all directions.

There has to be an expanding edge because the universe is constantly expanding in unoccupied space. There is no absolute center because center has many definitions and fulfilling these definitions requires indeterminable data or doesn't have a center.

The universe is not expanding into unoccupied space. The distance between all unbound objects is simply growing larger over time.

The first link explains why the TBB is not a point, which is not a claim I am making.
The second links explains a list of things only a few of which I can find directly relevant (would help if you were specific). The relevant section I found was http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/nocenter.html which states there is no center based on the predication that center is defined as a point in which everything moves away from which I agree it does not have.

What you claimed, and what you claim that you've claimed, do not match. Your explanations require that the universe expanded outwards from a single point, whether you realize they do or not.

 

[Wanted]

Again, there is no edge. You can travel as far as you like but you will never find an edge. You will only keep finding matter in all directions.

In order for this to be true the amount of matter in the universe would have to be infinite. Something for which there is no verifiable/observable evidence to suggest.

The observable universe is 46.6 billion light years across with a finite amount of matter.

The universe is not expanding into unoccupied space. The distance between all unbound objects is simply growing larger over time.

Based on the previous predication for which there is no verifiable/observable evidence.

What you claimed, and what you claim that you've claimed, do not match. Your explanations require that the universe expanded outwards from a single point, whether you realize they do or not.

Only if based on the predication of universe with infinite mass which for which there is no verifiable/observable evidence.

Imho, and many others, finite matter is more rational than infinite matter. In which case the previous claims would not be invalidated by the assumptions in the context of infinite matter.

 

[Drakkith]

In order for this to be true the amount of matter in the universe would have to be infinite. Something for which there is no verifiable/observable evidence to suggest.

That is another incorrect statement. It is entirely possible for the universe to be unbounded yet finite, which would still mean that there is no edge and no center despite there being a finite amount of matter. In any case, I know of no accepted cosmological models where the universe is infinite and unbounded yet doesn't have an infinite amount of matter.

Imho, and many others, finite matter is more rational than infinite matter. In which case the previous claims would not be invalidated by the assumptions in the context of infinite matter.

You opinion on the rationality of infinite vs finite is irrelevant. The models that are most accepted by cosmologists are those where the matter in the universe is homogeneous at the largest scale. Models in which matter is not homogeneous (as required by any model with an 'edge') are, generally, not looked upon favorably, as they lack both evidence and rigorous theories to support them.

 

[Drakkith]

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