What is Schutz's explanation for the space-time interval in general relativity?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around Schutz's explanation of the space-time interval in general relativity, specifically focusing on the mathematical formulation and properties of the matrix involved in the interval's expression. Participants explore the implications of the symmetry of the matrix and seek clarification on the summation process.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion regarding Schutz's note about the symmetry of the matrix M, questioning why it can be assumed that Mαβ = Mβα.
  • Another participant explains that the terms M12Δx1Δx2 and M21Δx2Δx1 can be combined, leading to the conclusion that only the sum M12 + M21 is relevant.
  • A participant seeks clarification on the correct expansion of the space-time interval, presenting their interpretation of the summation.
  • One participant confirms the correctness of the expansion but notes a potential typo in the terms, emphasizing that the combined terms Mαβ and Mβα can be treated as a single symmetric term.
  • Another participant expresses a willingness to ask further questions about Schutz's treatment of the space-time interval, inquiring about the appropriateness of continuing the discussion in the same thread.
  • Responses suggest that it is acceptable to continue the discussion in the same thread, while one participant recommends starting a new thread for new topics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the mathematical properties of the matrix M and its symmetry, but there is some uncertainty regarding the best approach for continuing the discussion on related questions.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved aspects regarding the assumptions made about the matrix M and the specific details of the summation process that participants are trying to clarify.

schwarzschild
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I have been working through Schutz's A First Course in General Relativity and was a little confused by how he presents the space time interval:

[tex]\Delta \overline{s}^2 = \sum_{\alpha = 0}^{3} \sum_{\beta = 0}^{3} M_{\alpha \beta} (\Delta x^{\alpha})(\Delta x^{\beta})[/tex] for some numbers [tex]\left\{M_{\alpha \beta} ; \alpha , \beta = 0,...,3\right\}[/tex] which may be functions of the relative velocity between the frames.

And then says:

Note that we can suppose that
[tex]M_{\alpha \beta} = M_{\beta \alpha}[/tex] for all [tex]\alpha[/tex] and [tex]\beta[/tex], since only the sum [tex]M_{\alpha \beta} + M_{\beta \alpha}[/tex] ever appears when [tex]\alpha \ne \beta[/tex]

Anyways I'm confused about his "note" - why can we suppose that?
 
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Since Δx1Δx2 and Δx2Δx1 are the same, the only thing that matters is the sum M12 + M21 :

[tex]M_{12} \Delta x^1 \Delta x^2 + M_{21} \Delta x^2 \Delta x^1 = (M_{12} + M_{21})\Delta x^1 \Delta x^2[/tex]

If this sum were, say, 6, then the term in the expansion would be 6Δx1Δx2, and we can just write this as 3Δx1Δx2 + 3Δx2Δx1.
 
Is the following the correct expansion of:

[tex]\Delta \overline{s}^2 = \sum_{\alpha = 0}^{3} \sum_{\beta = 0}^{3} M_{\alpha \beta} (\Delta x^{\alpha})(\Delta x^{\beta}) <br /> = \sum_{\alpha = 0}^{3} (M_{\alpha 0} \Delta x^{\alpha} \Delta x ^{0} + M_{\alpha 1} \Delta x^{\alpha} \Delta x ^{1} + M_{\alpha 2} \Delta x^{\alpha} \Delta x ^{2} M_{\alpha 3} \Delta x^{\alpha} \Delta x ^{3})[/tex]
[tex]= M_{0 0} \Delta x^{0} \Delta x ^{1} + M_{01} \Delta x^{1} \Delta x^{0} + M_{02} \Delta x^{2} \Delta x^{0} + M_{03} \Delta x^{3} \Delta x^{0} + M_{10} \Delta x^{1} \Delta x^{0} + M_{11} \Delta x^{1} \Delta x^{1} + \cdot \cdot \cdot[/tex] [tex]+ M_{13} \Delta x^{1} \Delta x^{3} + M_{20} \Delta x^{2} \Delta x^{0} + \cdot \cdot \cdot + M_{23} \Delta x^{2} \Delta x^{3} + M_{30} \Delta x^{3} \Delta x^{0} + \cdot \cdot \cdot + M_{33} \Delta x^{3} \Delta x^{3}[/tex]

Sorry, but I'm having a little trouble understanding what exactly the summation is.
 
Yes, that's correct. (I think you made a typo in the 00 term.)

Notice that the Mab term and the Mba term can always be combined into a single term, and the coefficient of ΔxaΔxb will be Mab + Mba, i.e. only this sum matters. We can always split it up equally between Mab and Mba, and make M a symmetric matrix.
 
Last edited:
Okay, thanks, I'm pretty sure I understand this now. However, I'm probably going to have more questions as I continue through Schutz's treatment of the spacetime interval. Should I post them here, or make a new thread?
 
I think it would be ok to post them here.
 
dx said:
I think it would be ok to post them here.

I would suggest making a new thread if it's a new topic.
 

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