What is the energy here refers to?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the interpretation of the energy measurement of protons produced by the Berkeley 184 inch synchrocyclotron, specifically whether the stated 350 MeV refers to total energy or kinetic energy. The conversation includes theoretical considerations and calculations related to relativistic energy equations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether the 350 MeV refers to total energy or just kinetic energy, referencing the equation E^2=p^2m^2+m^2c^4.
  • Another participant corrects the energy equation to E^2 = p^2 c^2 + m^2 c^4 and asks if a proton can have a total energy of 350 MeV.
  • A later reply suggests that if the rest mass energy of a proton is 935 MeV, then 350 MeV cannot be the total energy, implying it must be kinetic energy instead.
  • One participant emphasizes that if protons are at rest, their kinetic energy would be zero, leading to a discussion about the relationship between total energy and kinetic energy.
  • Another participant notes that a detector measures kinetic energy when stopping a proton, reinforcing the idea that the 350 MeV measurement is likely kinetic energy.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether the 350 MeV represents total energy or kinetic energy, with some arguing it must be kinetic energy due to the rest mass energy of protons, while others question the conditions under which the measurement is made. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing interpretations.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference the rest mass energy of protons and the implications of energy measurements in detectors, but there are unresolved assumptions regarding the context of the energy measurement and the conditions under which the protons are accelerated.

cks
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The original design of the Berkeley 184 inch synchrocyclotron was able to product a pulsed beam of 350 MeV protons by using a magnetic field of 1.5T and a voltage amplitude across the 'dees' of 10,000 eV.

My question is the 350MeV the proton has refers to the total energy of just the kinetic energy?

Let's say

E^2=p^2m^2+m^2c^4

Is total energy , E=350MeV

Or

Kinetic energy = sqrt(p^2m^2+m^2c^4)-mc^2=350MeV
 
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E^2=p^2m^2+m^2c^4

Correction: [itex]E^2 = p^2 c^2 + m^2 c^4[/itex]

Is it even possible for a proton to have a total energy of 350 MeV, under any circumstances? :smile:

Hint: what is [itex]mc^2[/itex] for a proton? (m here being the rest-mass)
 
Last edited:
cks said:
The original design of the Berkeley 184 inch synchrocyclotron was able to product a pulsed beam of 350 MeV protons by using a magnetic field of 1.5T and a voltage amplitude across the 'dees' of 10,000 eV.

My question is the 350MeV the proton has refers to the total energy of just the kinetic energy?

Let's say

E^2=p^2m^2+m^2c^4

Is total energy , E=350MeV

Or

Kinetic energy = sqrt(p^2m^2+m^2c^4)-mc^2=350MeV
If you were talking about electrons instead of protons, the answer would be that the rest mass energy of an electron is tiny compared with 350 MeV so, as the figure is only approximate, it doesn't matter either way.

However if you really do mean protons, then something else in your question must be wrong, as jtbell has hinted...
 
Dear jtbell
If there was 0 MEV administered the protons would be at rest. So p=0. Since the first energy you mention: total energy = m*c^2 and the second energy you mention: kinetic energy = 0. I would say: the kinetic energy is the right answer.
 
DrGreg said:
However if you really do mean protons, then something else in your question must be wrong, as jtbell has hinted...
Oops, I withdraw that sentence. What I should have said was:

However if you really do mean protons, then jtbell has given you a big hint that only one of your answers could possibly be correct...​
 
I see. It's very easy to know whether the 350MeV refers to the total energy or Kinetic energy.

For proton, its rest mass energy is 935MeV.

So, the total energy should be at least more than the rest mass energy. So, 350MeV which is less than 935MeV can't possibly be total energy. It has to be kinetic energy.

I think physically, it's intuitive. Because the detector can stop the proton and thus measure its energy. If a proton is stopped, then all its kinetic energy converted as signal to the detector,while its rest mass energy can't be converted. So, a detector usually will detect Kinetic energy, I guess.

Thank you you guys.
 

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