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Medical What is the evidence in support of the anti-vaccine movement?

  1. Nov 17, 2009 #1
    As somebody with considerable immunological knowledge and a great interest in the field, I am very curious to see what evidence is in support of the anti-vaccine movement.

    Personally, I believe in the practice of vaccination because of what I have learned regarding the human immune system.

    However, I am very curious to see if any evidence proves the textbooks and research wrong, so present every piece of significant evidence you may know, or find.

    Thank you
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Nov 17, 2009 #2

    russ_watters

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    In a word: anecdotal.
     
  4. Nov 18, 2009 #3

    Go to pub-med. Search for "autoimmune , vaccine". The data is still conflicting.

    Vaccination is a very useful technique which saved millions of life , yet I never seen any reason to get vaccinated for something as trivial as a flue. Its simply not worth it.
     
  5. Nov 18, 2009 #4
    Please forgive the naivete regarding my inquiry on the subject.

    Do vaccines and pharmaceuticals block/impede neural connections or affect synapse?

    I have read that studies have shown that significant relationships exist to vaccines containing either mercury and alluminum and to neurodevelopmental delays.

    My general perception is that certain drugs act in this fashion. For example, a medicine that affects persons struggling with depression would block the neurological impulse that causes the individual to feel depressed (drugs affecting the seratonin)

    If vaccines/drugs do indeed block/impede neural connections then are the affects temporary or can they be permanent?

    And, if the vaccines/drugs do block/impede neural connections then there exists the plausibility in that vaccines, by interfering with neural transmissions, could cause what is perceived as being autism or having autistic characteristics.

    I'm presuming that the scientific argument is that since only a small percentage of recipients to a particular vaccine displayed autistic related side effects and that the large majority didn't then, logically, the vaccine is not, at least directly, responsible. In essence the large majority rules in ruling on the diagnosis.

    But, what if the diagnosis, in that the majority has not been negatively affected by the vaccine, has been misdiagnosed. What if all recipients of a particular vaccine, despite the positive desired effect of protecting against disease, have had there neurotransmitters negatively effected. The assertion being that all recipients have been effected to varying degrees (the majority being slightly effected) and that those displaying autistic characteristics are the exteme cases.

    If this argument were true then the vaccines would be directly responsible for the cases of autism.
     
  6. Nov 18, 2009 #5

    Evo

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    Please read our guidelines on overly speculative posts, especially when you have provided no recognized scientific research. I don't have the time to respond right now, hopefully someone else will.
     
  7. Nov 18, 2009 #6

    chroot

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    Vaccines are composed of viral particles (usually broken apart or otherwise killed) in a suspension with some preservatives. The viral particles themselves will not penetrate the blood-brain barrier, and thus cannot affect synapses or neural function directly. There was some fear that mercury-based preservatives could cause developmental problems, so those preservatives are no longer used. No current vaccines use mercury-containing preservatives.

    There is no credible link between autism and vaccination.

    Autism diagnoses have gone up because people are looking for it more often, and because the diagnostic criteria have become increasingly better-defined. Autism is an incredibly complex disorder, and cannot be reasonably discussed by hand-waving arguments about synapses.

    - Warren
     
  8. Nov 18, 2009 #7
  9. Nov 19, 2009 #8

    Moonbear

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    There is still a possibility of a connection between vaccines and autism, but it is not a causational one. I have not delved into the literature myself, but instead am relating what one of my colleagues with autistic children has shared (and she has experienced it with her children too). There is a possibility that children who are already autistic have an unusual reaction to vaccinations that exacerbates their symptoms of autism. In cases when parents are not aware yet that their child's unusual behaviors are symptoms of autism, the sudden worsening of their symptoms following some childhood vaccinations may lead the parents to think the vaccine caused it rather than realizing the condition already existed and led to the atypical reaction to the vaccine.

    My colleague isn't someone who is anti-vaccination, though. She has worked in virology and is in favor of vaccinations, but thinks that autistic children need some different considerations, such as not getting as many vaccinations at one time, or starting them a little older than the regular recommendations.

    Of course, all the stuff posted on the internet about thimerosol in vaccines is nonsense. Childhood vaccines have not included thimerosol for a long time, and the incidence of autism has not decreased as it would have if thimerosol was the cause.

    My approach on vaccination is the same with any other medical intervention. One needs to weight the benefit:risk ratio and take into consideration the risks associated with contracting the actual disease you are preventing. Things like polio that leave you with lifelong disabilities or cause death in a large percentage of the people who contract the illness are certainly worth getting vaccinated against (in fact, when I went to Africa this summer, I learned that I needed to get a polio booster because nobody is really sure if our childhood vaccines last into adulthood since we don't get exposed to polio unless we travel to a place where it is still endemic). On the other hand, the incidence of serious or long-term complications if one gets flu are pretty low, so unless you're in a risk group that raises the chances of you getting those complications, I don't think there's a sufficient benefit:risk ratio for flu vaccines in healthy, young adults. Yes, by not getting vaccinated, you take a chance that you'll be one of the few that has major complications of flu, but to me, there is a similarly low chance that you'll be one of the few that has a major reaction to the vaccine. So, in cases like that, I'm not anti-vaccine, but rather think it is a choice each individual needs to make as to which risk they'd rather take, since both are fairly low.
     
  10. Nov 19, 2009 #9
    moonbear, is that reaction by previously-autistic children related to inflammatory responses? i remember some of the autism community complaining that the number and frequency of vaccinations is much higher now than in the past.
     
  11. Nov 21, 2009 #10
    "There is still a possibility of a connection between vaccines and autism, but it is not a causational one."~Moonbear

    If you have a plausible scientific rationale or science based evidence for this assertion I would appreciate a citation as I can't find one.


    "I don't think there's a sufficient benefit:risk ratio for flu vaccines in healthy, young adults."~Moonbear

    The interesting fact about H1N1 is that the young are the primary affected population (>80% are under 60yrs) unlike seasonal flu whos population is the elderly (>90% over age 65).* I would like to know what you would propose to be accepted as a sufficient ratio and what would be your method for determining this?


    Depending on your reply, I may like to explore the public health concept of herd immunity versus individual immunity.

    Thanks.

    *Source for percentages: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=2733
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2009
  12. Nov 21, 2009 #11
    Evo wrote:
    Please read our guidelines on overly speculative posts, especially when you have provided no recognized scientific research.


    My apologies for not following protocal. Firstly, I don't believe that my original post was overly speculative. Below are the titles and links to numerous articles, studies, and research (along with brief snippets) on the subject of my original query, "Do vaccines and pharmaceuticals block/impede neurotransmitters?"

    From my own research (done in a few hours) it appears that yes, vaccines do affect and potentially inhibit neurotransmitters.

    CHroot wrote:
    Vaccines are composed of viral particles (usually broken apart or otherwise killed) in a suspension with some preservatives. The viral particles themselves will not penetrate the blood-brain barrier, and thus cannot affect synapses or neural function directly. There was some fear that mercury-based preservatives could cause developmental problems, so those preservatives are no longer used. No current vaccines use mercury-containing preservatives.

    There is no credible link between autism and vaccination.


    You are incorrect on a couple of issues. There are vaccines (annual flu vaccine) that contain mercury. Most other vaccines no longer use mercury, however, they have replaced it the aluminum and aluminum can penetrate the BBB as it is recongized as iron. And, though aluminum has been considered safe, a number of the studies below reflect otherwise.

    Please correct the plausibility of my argument, but, from what I gather, mercury, aluminum and other heavy metals used as adjuvants in vaccines enter neurons and glial cells (astrocytes and microglia). These toxic metals can inhibit astrocyte function in the brain. They also activate microglia cells in the brain, which control brain inflammation and immunity. Once activated, the microglia secrete large amounts of neurotoxic substances such as glutamate, an excitotoxin, which adds to inflammation. The inflammation disrupts brain neurotransmitters resulting in reduced levels of serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine. The toxic metals can inhibit production of neurotransmitters by inhibiting: calcium-dependent neurotransmitter release, dihydroteridine reductase, nitric oxide synthase, blocking neurotransmitter amino acids, and effecting phenylalanine, tyrosine and tryptophan transport to neurons. And, recent studies show that astrocyte apoptosis may contribute to pathogenesis of many acute and chronic neurodegenerative disorders, such as cerebral ischemia, Alzheimer's disease and Parkinson's disease.

    So, according to the research provided below, vaccines containing toxic metals (including aluminum) can inhibit neurotransmitters and potentially cause neurological disorders. These disorders include Autism, Alzheimers, Parkinson's, ADHD, etc... from a purely logically standpoint, injecting toxic metals into our brains can provide a harmful consequence.

    The speculation is based on the potential fact that toxic metals inhibit neurotransmitters. So, every individual recieving a vaccine containing toxic metals has had their brains affected by them to a certain degree. As a result some will suffer with ADD/ADHD, while others will suffer with Parkinsons, Alzheimers, Dementia, etc..., while others deal with Restless leg syndrome, Sleep apnea, or one of the hundreds of neurological disorders, and sadly others have literally seen the lights within their children's eyes go dim as a result of Autism.

    To suggest that there are no serious neurological risks associated with vaccines is simply illogical. To suggest that there are no consequences to injecting toxic metals into our bodies is also illogical. What our culture has potentially done is trade Mumps, Measles, and Rubella for Autism, Alzheimers and ADHD. Now, that's a bold speculation.







    Vaccine critics & studies on vaccine autism link
    http://whale.to/vaccine/mmr58.html

    One in every 166 children has autism today
    compared to one in every 2,500 in 1991.


    Chemist says mercury linked to autism spike
    http://www.whale.to/vaccine/chem.html
    From the article:
    He figured out that the amount of mercury in flu shots - 50,000 micrograms per
    liter in the multi-dose vials - is 250 times the amount that's considered
    safe for liquid hazardous waste.

    Study shows a direct link between standard childhood vaccination series and autism-like symptoms in primates.
    http://www.naturalnews.com/026827_autism_vaccination_vaccines.html
    From the article:
    While the Food and Drug Administration considers vaccines safe and lists them as such, they have done no studies into the effects of multiple vaccinations as given in the common childhood series which started in the 1990s.

    Mercury In Vaccines Was Replaced With Something Even MORE Toxic http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/89667
    From the article:
    Vaccines containing high concentrations of neurotoxic aluminum were added to the child immunization schedule when several vaccines containing mercury were removed. Two-month old babies now receive 1,225 mcg of aluminum from their vaccines -- 50 times higher than safety levels!

    Every vaccine has two components, the agent that you´re seeking to elicit an immune response to, such as a measles virus, and an immune adjuvant, which enhances the immune response and is typically made from a variety of highly toxic compounds including aluminum compounds, MSG, and mercury. The purpose of immune adjuvants is to boost your immune system, or to make it react as intensely as possible for as long as possible.

    How Aluminum Can Harm Your Brain?

    When you or your child is injected with a vaccine, the aluminum compounds it contains accumulate not only at the site of injection but travel to your brain and accumulate there. In your brain, aluminum enters neurons and glial cells (astrocytes and microglia).

    The aluminum hydroxide used in many vaccines, including hepatitis A and B, and the Pentacel cocktail for diphtheria, pertussis, tetanus, polio, and meningitis, has been clearly linked to symptoms associated with Parkinson's, ALS (Lou Gehrig's disease), and Alzheimer's.

    Even a study in Pediatrics, the official journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics, admitted that: "Aluminum is now being implicated as interfering with a variety of cellular and metabolic processes in the nervous system and in other tissues." This has led some experts to suggest that aluminum in vaccines may be linked to autism.

    Aluminum in Vaccines: The Neurological gamble
    http://www.thinktwice.com/aluminum.pdf
    From article:
    Babies who follow the CDC immunization schedule are injected with nearly 5000mcg (5mg!) of aluminum by 18 months of age.


    Depression and other Neurotransmitter Related Conditions- the mercury connection
    http://www.flcv.com/depress.html
    From article:
    The levels of brain neurotransmitters such as dopamine, norepinephrine, and serotonin, appear to be major factors in controlling moods, and appear to be affected by lifestyle, diet, philosophy, and environmental factors. Some are more susceptible to depression than others, and thus more affected by diet and environmental factors.

    Chronic or acute brain inflammation appears to be a primary factor in depression. The brain is very sensitive to inflammation. Disturbances in metabolic networks: e.g., immuno-inflammatory processes, insulin-glucose homeostasis, adipokine synthesis and secretion, intra-cellular signaling cascades, and mitochondrial respiration have been shown to be major factors in depressive disorders and other chronic neurological conditions.

    Inflammatory chemicals such as mercury, aluminum, and other toxic metals as well as other excitotoxins including MSG and aspartame cause high levels of free radicals, lipid peroxidation, inflammatory cytokines, and oxidative stress in the brain and cardiovascular systems. Overexposure to heavy metals like lead and mercury have been shown to induce anxiety or depression.

    Mercury and other toxic metals inhibit astrocyte function in the brain and CNS, causing increased glutamate and calcium related neurotoxicity. Mercury and increased glutamate activate free radical forming processes like xanthine oxidase which produce oxygen radicals and oxidative neurological damage. Nitric oxide related toxicty caused by peroxynitrite formed by the reaction of NO with superoxide anions, which results in nitration of tyrosine residues in neurofilaments and manganese Superoxide Dimustase(SOD) has been found to cause inhibition of the mitochondrial respiratory chain, inhibition of the glutamate transporter, and glutamate-induced neurotoxicity involved in ALS.

    These inflammatory processes damage cell structures including DNA, mitochondria, and cell membranes. They also activate microglia cells in the brain, which control brain inflammation and immunity. Once activated, the microglia secrete large amounts of neurotoxic substances such as glutamate, an excitotoxin, which adds to inflammation and stimulates the area of the brain associated with anxiety. Inflammation also disrupts brain neurotransmitters resulting in reduced levels of serotonin, dopamine, and norepinephrine. Some of the main causes of such disturbances that have been documented include vaccines, mercury, aluminum, other toxic metals, MSG, aspartame, etc.

    Mercury is neurotoxic (kills or damages brain and nerve cells), generates high levels of reactive oxygen species (ROS) and oxidative stress, depletes gluatathione and thiols causing increased neurotoxicity from interactions of ROS, glutamate, and dopamine, kills or inhibits production of brain tubulin cells, inhibits production of neurotransmitters by inhibiting: calcium-dependent neurotransmitter release, dihydroteridine reductase,nitric oxide synthase, blocking neurotransmitter amino acids, and effecting phenylalanine, tyrosine and tryptophan transport to neurons. Toxic metals as well as genetic factors commonly cause systemic methylation deficiencies, which are documented to commonly be a factor in chronic conditions such as depression, autism, etc.

    Numerous studies have found long-term chronic low doses of mercury cause neurological, memory, behaviour, sleep, and mood problems. Neurological problems are among the most common and serious effects of mercury, and include memory loss, moodiness, depression, anger and sudden bursts of anger/rage, self-effacement, suicidal thoughts, lack of strength/force to resolve doubts or resist obsessions or compulsions, etc. Many studies of patients with major neurological diseases have found evidence amalgam fillings may play a major role in development of conditions such as depression, schizophrenia , memory problems, and other more serious neurological diseases such as MS, ALS, Parkinson’s, and Alzheimer’s.

    The Neurotoxic Effects of Aluminum
    http://student.biology.arizona.edu/ad/neurotoxic.html [Broken]

    Evaluation of Neurotoxicity of Mercury Compounds and Aluminum in Cell Cultures http://acta.uta.fi/english/teos.php?id=10127
    From abstract:
    Mercury and aluminum are neurotoxic metals with diverse effects on cellular functions in the brain. Ultimately exposure to them can lead to neural destruction and degenerative diseases.

    Aluminum and Aluminum Toxicity
    http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/hydro/al.htm [Broken]
    From research:
    Aluminum has been exempted from tesitng for safety by the FDA under a convoluted logic wherein it is classified as GRAS. (Generally Regarded As Safe.) It has never been tested by the FDA on its safety and there are NO restrictions whatever on the amount or use of aluminum.

    Aluminum neurotoxicity in preterm infants receiving intravenous-feeding solutions. In preterm infants, prolonged intravenous feeding with solutions containing aluminum is associated with impaired neurologic development.

    Aluminum-induced apoptosis in cultured astrocytes and its effect on calcium homeostasis
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...serid=10&md5=3517b96b88f822e0a1316ce978aa87aa
    From Abstract:
    Aluminum exposure and apoptotic cell death has been implicated in several neurodegenerative conditions including Alzheimer’s disease. In this study, we use cultured astrocytes to investigate the ability of aluminum to induce the apoptosis of astrocytes.

    The study's findings suggest that aluminum induce and block selectively the apoptosis of astrocytes, which depend upon the concentrations of aluminum.

    Astrocyte apoptosis: implications for neuroprotection. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15063528
    Astrocytes, the most abundant glial cell types in the brain, provide metabolic and trophic support to neurons and modulate synaptic activity. Accordingly, impairment in these astrocyte functions can critically influence neuronal survival. Recent studies show that astrocyte apoptosis may contribute to pathogenesis of many acute and chronic neurodegenerative disorders, such as cerebral ischemia, Alzheimer's disease and Parkinson's disease.
    Poisoning the Well: Neurotoxic Metals, Water Treatment, and Human Behavior http://www.alkalizeforhealth.net/Lpoison.htm
    Summary: Heavy metals compromise normal brain development and neurotransmitter function, leading to long-term deficits in learning and social behavior.

    Vaccinated Children Two And A Half Times More Likely To Have Neurological Disorders
    http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/75333.php
    From Article:
    For older vaccinated boys in the 11-17 age bracket, the results were even more pronounced. Vaccinated boys were 158% more likely to have a neurological disorder, 317% more likely to have ADHD, and 112% more likely to have autism. Complete survey results are available at http://www.GenerationRescue.org.

    Autism: a Novel Form of Mercury Poisoning
    http://www.autism.com/triggers/vaccine/mercury.htm
    From Article:
    Autism is a neurodevelopmental disorder which has been characterized as "a disorder of neuronal organization, that is, the development of the dentritic tree, synaptogenesis, and the development of the complex connectivity within and between brain regions" . Depressed expression of neural cell adhesion molecules (NCAMs), which are critical during brain development for proper synaptic structuring, has been found in one study of autism. Organic mercury, which readily crosses the blood-brain barrier, preferentially targets nerve cells and nerve fibers; primates accumulate the highest Hg-levels in the brain relative to other organs. Furthermore, although most cells respond to mercurial injury by modulating levels of glutathione (GSH), metallothionein, hemoxygenase, and other stress proteins, neurons tend to be “markedly deficient in these responses” and thus are less able to remove Hg and more prone to Hg-induced injury. In the developing brain, mercury interferes with neuronal migration, depresses cell division, disrupts microtubule function, and reduces NCAMs.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
  13. Nov 22, 2009 #12
    I question the wisdom of a medical science forum on physicsforums.com without an MD or DVM moderator when public health subjects are discussed. Actually, I'm rather disappointed.

    Perhaps I've misunderstood the nature of this forum.
     
  14. Nov 22, 2009 #13
    You know, none of us can help you with your feelings of disappointment. The forums rules doesn't allow us to provide medical diagnoses.
     
  15. Nov 22, 2009 #14
    DanP

    I am very well aware of the no-diagnosis disclaimer. You misunderstood my post and I regret that for obviously I wasn't clear.

    Also, feelings of disappointment can certainly be mended when properly addressed. Adults clear things up and move on. I await Moonbear's (identified as a science advisor for PF) reply to my questions about plausibility and evidence in keeping with PF's tradition of zero tolerance for speculation not supported by a scientific rationale.
     
  16. Nov 22, 2009 #15

    russ_watters

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    Moonbear is a retired moderator and a phd biologist (endocrinologist?) and professor who teaches physiology to aspiring doctors.
    Dan was being sarcastic. He was saying (quite correctly) that your disappointment is your problem, not ours.
     
  17. Nov 22, 2009 #16
    russ

    I hear you. I looked up Moonbear's profile a while ago. That's why I asked Moonbear the questions that I did.

    Second, since this site has a responsible person/party that may care about the quality of their product,I should think it is reasonable to express disappointment in a public way and hope for a response and or resolution. In which case, depending on the reply, my disappointment most certainly can be mended.

    It was incorrect to assume my disappointment was addressed only to the member audience which if that was the case, you would be on to something. If you have proof that the owner(s) or responsible party of this forum has zero interest in member feedback about quality or for a fact never reads members' posts, then I will accept your point and move on.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2009
  18. Nov 22, 2009 #17
    Hey Sample,

    1. I dont think we have to look at this site as a "product". Besides, from all the science forums on internet , this is one of the best. True, it's aimed mainly on hard sciences like physics and math, but nevertheless it's great in other sections as well. I dont think you will easily find better "quality" in a forum.

    2. I think one shouldn't become so easily disappointed. There are a lot of ongoing discussions, and moderators has a lot of work to do. And its very hard to keep everybody happy. Besides, acting "hurt" and asking that somebody mend your disappointment it's a bit of an overkill.

    3. moonbear is great in answering all things. Im sure that sooner or later you will get an answer from him/her. Have patience, it's Sunday, and ppl have a life outside those forums.
    They don't get payed to answer on those forums, and surely they are not payed to make amends. It is a a voluntary effort, and hence it is inappropriate to demand answers at you leisure time. They will come when they will come.

     
  19. Nov 22, 2009 #18
    DanP.

    Thank you for the reply and the enthusiasm for your forums.

    I have no issue, nor have I had an issue with waiting for a former moderator's reply.
     
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