What is the Flaw in this Perpetual Motion Machine?

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter maxpower2008
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the analysis of a proposed perpetual motion machine involving a hollow metal sphere that utilizes buoyancy and gravity to generate energy. Participants explore the mechanics of the device, questioning the assumptions made about energy efficiency and the behavior of fluids in the system.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a mechanism where a 10 kg hollow metal sphere free-falls 10 m, gaining kinetic energy, which is then harvested, suggesting a net energy gain after accounting for the energy required to lift the sphere back up.
  • Another participant challenges the assumption of achieving 50% efficiency and questions the feasibility of the water column supporting the sphere's ascent.
  • A different participant defends the presence of the water column, asserting that buoyancy allows the sphere to rise, while also suggesting that any efficiency above 10% is plausible.
  • Concerns are raised about the mechanics of the water column, with one participant expressing skepticism about how it remains stable under gravity.
  • Another participant points out that the energy required to push the sphere into the water must account for the energy needed to displace the water, emphasizing that the entire mass of the water column is affected when the sphere is introduced.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus. There are multiple competing views regarding the feasibility of the proposed mechanism and the assumptions about energy efficiency and fluid dynamics.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include assumptions about energy efficiency, the behavior of fluids under gravity, and the mechanics of buoyancy. The discussion does not resolve these issues.

Who May Find This Useful

Individuals interested in mechanics, fluid dynamics, and the principles of energy conservation may find this discussion relevant.

maxpower2008
Messages
3
Reaction score
0
Hey everyone, this is my first post so I appreciate the replies.

Ok, like any good engineer shouldn't, I have no intention of violating the conservation of energy.
That being said, I need some help identifying where the violation occurs in the following mechanism I've been thinking about lately. (or does it?...)

Imagine a hollow metal sphere, say 10 kg, which has sufficient volume to make it positively buoyant.
It starts at the top of a vertical pipe and free-falls for say 10 m. At this point the mass has 1000 J of kinetic energy.
At this point, you harvest this energy as best you can (likely a mechanical wheel, or perhaps the sphere is magnetic and it passes an induction coil). If you can do this at even 50% efficiency, you just gained 500 J of energy.
After this, the sphere passes through a one-way valve via its own momentum into a vertical column of water, the water level being just slightly lower than the top of the air pipe. The vertical pipe and the column of water are connected at the top by a small ramp, and an actuator is used to push the sphere the final distance, say 1m, into the air pipe where the cycle starts again. Moving the 10 kg mass 1 m takes 100 J of energy, so that's subtracted from the 500 J gained to yield a positive 400 J.

So...isn't this performance over-unity? Of course, any work done on an object by gravity must be equal to the work done to get it up to that height in the first place, but in this case, isn't that being primarily taken care of by buoyancy?

Whats the issue here?
-Max
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Flaws: assumption that you will get 50% efficiency and that there is some magical column of water that gets the sphere up to the top again. So how would that work?
 
I don't know what is magic about the column of water. It is simply there, next to the column of air, and the mass floats to the top because it is buoyant. Also, the principle I am curious about is still true if I assume any efficiency greater than 10%, which seems reasonable to me.
 
I don't know, I don't get how you have a column of water just standing up instead of falling down under gravity.
 
The flaw is the assumption about how much energy is required to push the ball into the water at the bottom of the device. It's wrong. In the real-world, a lot of that is surface tension and viscosity, but even if there existed a zero viscosity, zero surface tension fluid, you'd still need all of the kinetic energy of the ball (minus what it took to lift the ball out of the water at the top) to get it into the tube at the bottom.

If you can't visualize why this is true, take a step back and think about what happens to the column of water when you put the ball in at the bottom: it rises. The entire mass of the 10m column of water rises. That's a lot of energy.

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/buoy4.htm

Btw, this forum isn't really for free-form debunk-my-perpetual-motion-machine discussions.
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

Replies
31
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
Replies
5
Views
8K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
4K
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
6K
  • · Replies 47 ·
2
Replies
47
Views
4K
  • · Replies 31 ·
2
Replies
31
Views
5K
  • · Replies 52 ·
2
Replies
52
Views
8K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
4K