What is the global significance of a 5-sigma Higgs signal?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the significance of the Higgs boson and its role in the mass of fundamental particles, particularly in the context of electroweak unification. Participants explore theoretical implications, alternative models, and the broader impact of discovering a 5-sigma Higgs signal.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question the necessity of the Higgs boson, suggesting that it is not sufficient to explain the mass of ordinary matter.
  • Others argue that the Higgs mechanism is essential for providing mass to W and Z bosons, which are crucial for electroweak theory.
  • A participant notes that at high temperatures, all elementary particles are massless, raising questions about the conditions under which particles acquire mass.
  • There is a discussion on the gauge invariance of mass terms in the Lagrangian and the implications for vector bosons.
  • Some participants mention alternative theories if the Higgs boson is not found, referencing existing models like the Higgsless model.
  • One participant cites a claim that the Higgs mechanism accounts for only a small fraction of the mass of ordinary matter, prompting further inquiry into the nature of mass in the universe.
  • Another participant elaborates on the contributions of quantum chromodynamics (QCD) to the mass of protons and neutrons, emphasizing that most mass arises from color confinement rather than the Higgs mechanism.
  • There is a mention of dark matter and its relationship to the Higgs field, with uncertainty expressed about whether dark matter interacts with it.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the role of the Higgs boson and the mechanisms behind mass generation. The discussion remains unresolved, with differing opinions on the significance of the Higgs mechanism and its contributions to mass.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in understanding the contributions of various mechanisms to mass, including unresolved questions about the nature of dark matter and the assumptions underlying different theoretical models.

  • #31
An electron in a semi-conductor has changed mass. Is there any similarity between mass given by Higgs boson and this "semi-conductor" mechanism?

I forget also, what is the principle of electron mass change in semi-conductor?
 
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  • #33
exponent137 said:
Now I found derivation of effective electron mass in semi conductor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effective_mass_(solid-state_physics)
It is in the section "derivation".
Is any similar principle for Higgs boson?

No, the analogue in condensed matter of the Higgs mechanism is the Meissner effect for superconductors. Actually, this was discovered by Anderson before Brout, Englert, Higgs, Guralnik, Hagen and Kibble did their famous work, and Higgs based his work on Anderson's. There's an explanation of the Anderson-Higgs mechanism here: http://arxiv.org/abs/cond-mat/0503400.
 
  • #34
I will read this. I will read also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Higgs_mechanism
But is it possible to explain much shorter?
Cooper's pairs expel magnetic field.
Higgs bosons expel what?...How Z and W get masses?
Maybe this step of explanation goes without wave functions?
 
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  • #36
You can plot a curve "likelihood versus signal strength" - that will give (approximately) a gaussian curve with the maximum at the observed signal strength and "zero signal" about 5 standard deviations away. The real analysis is a bit more complicated, but that is the basic idea.
 
  • #37
Vixra is not an acceptable source here, so please be careful with it. I am letting it in here because it's being used as an example for a certain kind of plot, but normally it cannot be used.
 
  • #38
mfb said:
You can plot a curve "likelihood versus signal strength" - that will give (approximately) a gaussian curve with the maximum at the observed signal strength and "zero signal" about 5 standard deviations away. The real analysis is a bit more complicated, but that is the basic idea.

Yes, let us say simplified, that is that Higgs signal gives some gaussian curve with center close to 125 GeV and with width somewhere <1 GeV, thus 5 sigma < 5 GeV.
But, what is zero signal? Is it some grass everywhere on energy scale and this grass has some bumps?

I am not sure if we should look 5 sigma of those bumps, but Higgs signal should be out of those 5 sigma?
 
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  • #39
mfb said:
You can plot a curve "likelihood versus signal strength" - that will give (approximately) a gaussian curve with the maximum at the observed signal strength and "zero signal" about 5 standard deviations away. The real analysis is a bit more complicated, but that is the basic idea.

On blog, Gibbs writes many reports from Higgs measurement and he does not write many speculations. viXra archive is not the same as his blog. Similar surnames similar topics :) .
 
  • #40
exponent137 said:
Yes, let us say simplified, that is that Higgs signal gives some gaussian curve with center close to 125 GeV and with width somewhere <1 GeV, thus 5 sigma < 5 GeV.
No, that is a completely different thing.
The significance is related to the signal strength ("number of Higgs events in the peak") and its uncertainty. Assuming gaussian errors, this uncertainty would be about 20%. This is called "local significance", as it is the significance of the peak at that position.

Zero signal would be "background-only model fits perfectly". Of course, that will not happen due to statistical fluctuations, so you expect to see some 1-2 sigma deviations in many different spots. However, you do not expect to see a 5-sigma deviation. If you calculate the (small) probability to get a 5-sigma signal by random fluctuation, you can calculate a "global significance" of your 5-sigma result.


@post 39: I think you quoted the wrong post there :confused:
 

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