What is the magnetic equivalent to the Coulomb?

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter fagricipni
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Coulomb Force Magnetic
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the concept of magnetic monopoles and their potential equivalence to electric charges, specifically exploring the formulation of a magnetic force law analogous to Coulomb's Law. Participants delve into theoretical aspects, unit definitions, and the implications of magnetic monopoles in electromagnetism.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose a magnetic force equation similar to Coulomb's Law, suggesting a form ##F=n\frac{p_1p_2}{r^2}## for magnetic monopoles, with ##p## representing "pole strength".
  • Others argue that since magnetic monopoles have not been observed, there is no defined unit for their magnetic charge.
  • A participant mentions the Biot-Savart Law as a relevant concept, cautioning against starting from the idea of magnetic monopoles as it may reinforce misconceptions.
  • One participant expresses skepticism about the viability of magnetic monopoles, noting that electric charges can create electric fields from a single point, while magnetic fields arise from currents distributed over space.
  • Another participant suggests that there should be symmetry between electric and magnetic behaviors, proposing that a beam of magnetic monopoles could create an electric field analogous to how electric monopoles create magnetic fields.
  • It is noted that if magnetic monopoles exist, their charge must be quantized, and there are discussions about the potential units for magnetic charge, such as webers or ampere-meters.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus, as there are multiple competing views regarding the existence of magnetic monopoles and the formulation of a corresponding force law. The discussion remains unresolved with differing opinions on the implications and definitions involved.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the speculative nature of magnetic monopoles, the lack of observational evidence, and the dependence on theoretical constructs that may not have established units or definitions.

fagricipni
Messages
3
Reaction score
0
For electric charges the relation is ##F=k\frac{q_1q_2}{r^2}##, where ##k=\frac{1}{4\pi\varepsilon_0}##. It seems to me that for the (hypothesized) magnetic monopole one could write an equivalent ##F=n\frac{p_1p_2}{r^2}##. I have replaced the q's with p's for "pole strength", and k with n -- no mnemonic there, just picked a letter. In both equations F is a force measured in newtons and r is a distance measured in meters. In the SI base units the q's are measured in ampere-seconds, and k is a function of ##\varepsilon_0##. What should the p's be measured in in SI base units, and does ##n=\frac{1}{4\pi\mu_0}##?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Since there is no evidence magnetic monopoles exist, there is no defined unit for their magnetic charge.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: DaveE and Lord Jestocost
There is something called the Biot-Savart Law that is similar to Coloumb's Law.

I strongly, strongly, strongly recommend that you NOT start from thius point. It will clarify nothing and reinforce your misconceptions.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: PhDeezNutz, DaveE and osilmag
fagricipni said:
For electric charges the relation is ##F=k\frac{q_1q_2}{r^2}##, where ##k=\frac{1}{4\pi\varepsilon_0}##. It seems to me that for the (hypothesized) magnetic monopole one could write an equivalent ##F=n\frac{p_1p_2}{r^2}##. I have replaced the q's with p's for "pole strength", and k with n -- no mnemonic there, just picked a letter. In both equations F is a force measured in newtons and r is a distance measured in meters. In the SI base units the q's are measured in ampere-seconds, and k is a function of ##\varepsilon_0##. What should the p's be measured in in SI base units, and does ##n=\frac{1}{4\pi\mu_0}##?

Magnetic forces arise from current not from static charges.
 
Here's my short, very hand-wavy, description of why this idea doesn't work:
- Electric charges (monopoles) exist, and can be easily observed. They can create an E-field from a single point in space.
- Magnetic charges (monopoles) have never been observed, in spite of lots of effort. Maybe they will be seen someday in extremely unusual places/situations, IDK. But they certainly don't effect your life today.
- Magnetic fields are created from moving electrons, which by that very nature is many points in space. The current that creates B-fields moves from somewhere to somewhere else. This means that you will have to add up the contributions to the B-field over space (the current path, sort of).

Maxwell did a nice job of explaining classical EM. This is where you're answers lie.
In particular: ## \nabla \cdot \vec E = \frac {\rho}{\epsilon_o} ## and ## \nabla \cdot \vec B = 0 ##
It's going to be really hard to identify or attach units to something that is always, under all circumstances zero.
 
First, I am aware that magnetic monopoles are only theorized particles. I've been thinking about how to describe what I am doing, and I'm thinking that there should be a kind of symmetry between electric and magnetic behavior. The mention of the Biot-Savart Law actually relates to one symmetry that I am trying to explore: A beam of electric monopoles; e.g., electrons from an electron gun, creates a magnetic field which encircles the beam; likewise, a beam of magnetic monopoles should create an electric field that encircles the beam. Electric current is measured in amperes which are coulombs per second, so a magnetic current should be measurable in some unit per second, where that unit is the magnetic equivalent of the coulomb. It seems to me that the all of behaviors described for electric charges would have their analogs for magnetic charges if such magnetic charges exist. Certainly, the magnetic field outside of a magnetic dipole looks the same an the electric field outside of an electric dipole.
 
fagricipni said:
It seems to me that the all of behaviors described for electric charges would have their analogs for magnetic charges if such magnetic charges exist.
This is all well-trodden ground. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_monopole:
1726766075558.png

Note that in 1931 Dirac proved that if monopoles exist, both the fundamental electric charge ##q_e## and magnetic charge ##q_m## must be quantized such that their (suitably normalized) product is an integer:
1726766359800.png

And using these formulae, or indeed the generalized Maxwell equations above them, it's easy to show that, depending on your choice of convention, magnetic charge carries units of webers or ampere-meters:
1726767284492.png
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: SammyS and Ibix

Similar threads

  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
971
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
669
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
748
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
991
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K