What is the mechanism behind Quantum Entanglement?

  • #91
sakshiverma said:
It occurs when particles are linked together in such a way that they share information instantaneously regardless of the distance between them.
The principle of superposition clearly explains what is going on. As Bell explained, it leads to statistical correlations different to standard probability theory unless they can share information instantaneously. You either have a probability scheme of a more general sort or standard probability with spooky instantaneous action at a distance. Take your pick. Until an experiment can be devised to separate the two, it is simply what you prefer - like interpretations. My view is we do not have direct experience with the Quantum world. Hence, I have no problem with the idea it may involve a probability structure different to everyday intuition.

While 'strange', 'unusual' etc can all apply, I certainly don't find it a mystery, but I suppose everyone is different.

Thanks
Bill
 
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  • #92
RUTA said:
Therein he makes no attempt whatsoever to resolve the mystery of entanglement.
I don't find any mystery in QM being a different generalised probability theory than standard probability theory. Maybe it's just me.

Thanks
Bill
 
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  • #93
RUTA said:
One etymology of the word "science" is from the Latin "scientia" which means "knowledge," and science is considered by many to be the search for knowledge.
I find it amusing that we adore the current scientific knowledge of corroborated theories, but the scientific method which is what keeps evolving science falls into the realm of "philosophy" and is something that is considered irrelevant for science.

For an experimental physicists or engineer, I totally get that discussing methodology is somehow off topic, as the feedback is direct experimental feedback. If you have such prime feedback, indeed it seems like a waste of time to worry about alternative ways to model the same thing.

But for a theoretical physicist that is using existing data(sometimes very old data) and existing theories and tries to expand the theory or merge theories one needs abstract constructing principles or consistency requirements that themselves as methods are by definition now "scientific facts" but which somehow seem necessary. Indeed excellent examples of theoretical constructing principles are the "no preferred frame" or "observer equivalence" principles, or various other symmetry arguments, they can be extremely powerful. Yet I don't think we can call such design tools are hardly "scientific facts" in the ordinary sense. It's like the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics that you may or may not find interesting to discuss.

So where to draw the line here in the discussion must be different depending on where in the experimental-theoretical range you are??

/Fredrik
 
  • #94
bhobba said:
I don't find any mystery in QM being a different generalised probability theory than standard probability theory. Maybe it's just me.
I symphatize with this. But for me, when this "generalized probability" is digested, a new conceptual understanding emerges for me at least, and when trying to understand physics in these terms, things just does not add up right. How do understand gravity in QM and also entanglement are it seems two key areas. So while I am with you in the "generalized probability" line of reasoning, many details are unclear to make the puzzle complete.

/Fredrik
 
  • #95
bhobba said:
I don't find any mystery in QM being a different generalised probability theory than standard probability theory. Maybe it's just me.

Thanks
Bill
And why this particular generalized probability theory? There are others besides QM. No preferred reference frame is one answer to that question. It selects QM over classical probability theory and the PR box, thereby providing a reason for the Tsirelson bound. Everyone has their own terminus for their curiosity, so someone might then ask, "Why NPRF?" And so on.
 
  • #96
RUTA said:
One etymology of the word "science" is from the Latin "scientia" which means "knowledge," and science is considered by many to be the search for knowledge. Therefore, one answer to your question is that many of us are seeking more knowledge about entanglement. We understand the QM formalism with its empirical verification and technological applications. We want to know something else, i.e., is there a reason why Nature harbors entanglement as given by QM? We use forums such as this to share our different answers to that question. If you don't have any ideas to contribute, you don't have to participate.
Well, I'd like to understand, what these problems might be. Theoretical physics is about the mathematical description of the observable objective phenomena of Nature. QT is the hitherto most comprehensive model describing all hitherto known matter. The question, why the natural laws are as we observe them cannot be answered by the scientific method.

Entanglement and the implied long-range strong correlations between far-distantly observed parts of an entangled system is indeed a good example: The "philosophical problems" EPR had at their time with this consequence of QT has been answered with the following development of the issue thanks to Bell's work, who found a way to transform the vague philosophical question posed in the EPR paper to a clear scientifically testable hypothesis, and all the experiments testing the corresponding Bell inequalities following from local deterministic hidden-variable theories are contradicting these inequalities in precisely the way as it is predicted by QT.

What else then is it, what's still "not understood"? To participate in a scientific discussion, one has to understand, what's discussed! If I get an answer clearly contradicting empirical facts, I think it's legitimate to clarify where I might have misunderstood something and it's also legitimate to critizise such obviously empirically refuted claims.
 
  • #97
gentzen said:
How about the following?
  • Whether Bit commitment is still possible in a world with quantum computers & co. You might object that there are proofs that unconditionally secure ("provably unbreakable") quantum bit commitment is impossible. But that is not the point, only exponentially hardness is requested, just like in the classical case.
  • Whether it is possible in principle to build scalable quantum computers, in a similar way as it is possible to build scalable classical computers. Again you might object that it was already proven that this is possible in principle. But was it really proven?
  • Whether quantum randomness allows to draw a random number at a specific point in time, and provide proof (again just exponential hardness is requested, not an "unconditional proof") that the random number indeed was drawn at the claimed point in time, that it was not known before, and that it was not manipulated. And again you might object that it was already proven that this is possible. But was it really proven?
Or maybe you instead object that you never heard of that stuff, and that this is not what you meant by "scientific questions". Perhaps actual discussion about whether some specific experiment qualifies or not, like here for device-independent quantum key distribution might convince you that such questions at least feel scientific to the involved scientists.
Indeed, I think from the theoretical point of view, these questions are answered, and the problem is indeed to realize, e.g., scalable quantum computers, is now in the realm of an engineering problem and as such it's of course a scientific one.

It's, however, not a problem about the foundations of quantum theory. Of course, if in the work towards this goal observations are made, which reproducibly contradict QT, then there's a fundamental problem with QT, but it's not a philosophical quibble about some "ontological implication of QT" but a scientific problem to modify QT to describe the new empirical discoveries. That's how the natural sciences work!
 
  • #98
Fra said:
I find it amusing that we adore the current scientific knowledge of corroborated theories, but the scientific method which is what keeps evolving science falls into the realm of "philosophy" and is something that is considered irrelevant for science.
But it's not "philosophy" which evolves the natural sciences but ever more precise observation and theory building based on that observations.
Fra said:
For an experimental physicists or engineer, I totally get that discussing methodology is somehow off topic, as the feedback is direct experimental feedback. If you have such prime feedback, indeed it seems like a waste of time to worry about alternative ways to model the same thing.
That's also not true. To find new methods to solve problems within a given theoretical framework is the bread-and-butter work of theoretical physicists. E.g., it's of great value to have formulated one and the same QT in various different ways and to understand that these different ways are indeed descriptions of the same theory. This has been true even historically, where QT has been discovered almost simultaneously in two different formulations (matrix and wave mechanics). In this case it was rather quickly understood that both are indeed formulations of the same theory, which could be formulated in a more general framework (by Dirac and mathematically rigorously by von Neumann). Somewhat later Feynman found his path-integral formulation. All of these formulations of the same theory have their merits in providing calculational tools to apply the theory to all kinds of different problems.
Fra said:
But for a theoretical physicist that is using existing data(sometimes very old data) and existing theories and tries to expand the theory or merge theories one needs abstract constructing principles or consistency requirements that themselves as methods are by definition now "scientific facts" but which somehow seem necessary. Indeed excellent examples of theoretical constructing principles are the "no preferred frame" or "observer equivalence" principles, or various other symmetry arguments, they can be extremely powerful. Yet I don't think we can call such design tools are hardly "scientific facts" in the ordinary sense. It's like the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics that you may or may not find interesting to discuss.
This is also right, but if you impose assumptions, like the invalidity of the conservation laws on an event-by-event basis, which are empirically refuted for almost a century, this cannot be a valid tool to extent theories. I've still to read the papers, where this claim is made. So far I only followed the discussion here, and from this I get that this statement is contradicting both the theory and empirical well-known facts. Of course, QT obeys the "no preferred frame" principle by construction.
Fra said:
So where to draw the line here in the discussion must be different depending on where in the experimental-theoretical range you are??

/Fredrik
No, experiment and theory are in close relationship, but theorists must be careful not to loose contact to the established empirical facts, among them the validity of conservation laws on an event-by-event basis.
 
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  • #99
RUTA said:
One etymology of the word "science" is from the Latin "scientia" which means "knowledge," and science is considered by many to be the search for knowledge. Therefore, one answer to your question is that many of us are seeking more knowledge about entanglement. We understand the QM formalism with its empirical verification and technological applications. We want to know something else, i.e., is there a reason why Nature harbors entanglement as given by QM? We use forums such as this to share our different answers to that question. If you don't have any ideas to contribute, you don't have to participate.
Some in the community have thrown the idea of realism out the window a decade ago, esp. after Bell. It does resolve a lot of conceptual issues and some why questions. Would it resolve some/most of your issues with entanglement if suddenly it appeared that realism at the quantum scale is no longer tenable?
 
  • #100
vanhees71 said:
The question, why the natural laws are as we observe them cannot be answered by the scientific method.
While I think may be true, just like science can never claim verification of anything, only corroboration...

"To suppose universal laws of nature capable of being apprehended by the mind and yet having no reason for their special forms, but standing inexplicable and irrational, is hardly a justifiable position. Uniformities are precisely the sort of facts that need to be accounted for. Law is par excellence the thing that wants a reason. Now the only possible way of accounting for the laws of nature, and for uniformity in general, is to suppose them results of evolution."
-- Charles Sanders Peirce, 1891, https://www.jstor.org/stable/27896847?searchText=The+architecture+of+theories&searchUri=%2Faction%2FdoBasicSearch%3FQuery%3DThe%2Barchitecture%2Bof%2Btheories%26so%3Drel&ab_segments=0%2FSYC-6451%2Fcontrol&refreqid=fastly-default%3Af66b3685f9ddbaaddc446656bc4c9b92#metadata_info_tab_contents

Pursuing this further by definition takes us into the philosophy of science so I will pass details. But I still think that as we ponder about the deepest theories of the world, and the presumably deepest laws, it is very hard to ignore questioning the very inference process that leads us there, although Popper tried to play down the inductive reasoning and highlight the selection.

I think we should not interpret this in the way that we should "question empirical facts". It also does not mean we should "think our way to enlightment". We need real feedback of course. After all, we do not "directly observe" laws of nature. It's usually described as and abduction of best explanation from more "raw observations". So even if we do not question the "raw feedback", it seems sound to reflect the way the abduction is done, as the resulting theory is obviously not unique. As we know there are many possible "theories" to explain the same "raw observations", and we tend to use the simplest one, but what is the qualified measure of simplicity?

So let me rephrase the question of "why these laws" into "why do we abduce these laws and not others". From the point of view or falsification, it is indeed irrelevant HOW anyone came up with a hypothesis. But from the perspective of intelligent learning it seems critical? If we can not answer that, it would effectively treat theory makers as monkeys, which has actually not been a bad suggestion in other fields.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/rickferri/2012/12/20/any-monkey-can-beat-the-market/

/Fredrik
 
  • #101
vanhees71 said:
But it's not "philosophy" which evolves the natural sciences but ever more precise observation and theory building based on that observations.
Over time, it indirectly does as philosophy has evolved the scientifid method. Long time ago in the dark ages a probable opinion, was simply that of an educated person or authority, and the careful person would not oppose. Philosophical reasoning lead to search for a more "rational beliefs" that was was quantitative and more objective, which lead to probability theory for example. In this sense, the foundation of scientic method follows from philosophical arguments.

vanhees71 said:
No, experiment and theory are in close relationship, but theorists must be careful not to loose contact to the established empirical facts
100% agreed. But we must not confused actualy raw empirical facts with abduced beliefs, which I think is often done.

/Fredrik
 
  • #102
vanhees71 said:
Well, I'd like to understand, what these problems might be. Theoretical physics is about the mathematical description of the observable objective phenomena of Nature. QT is the hitherto most comprehensive model describing all hitherto known matter. The question, why the natural laws are as we observe them cannot be answered by the scientific method.
We're not trying to answer that question by the scientific method. Did you happen to check the name of the forum you're posting in? Quantum Interpretations and Foundations is not restricted to what can be known by the scientific method. These topics have a strong philosophical bent. If you are not interested in discussing such issues, you do not have to be here telling everyone that you're not interested. Do you also visit forums on how to play chess and tell them they're not discussing the scientific method?

vanhees71 said:
Entanglement and the implied long-range strong correlations between far-distantly observed parts of an entangled system is indeed a good example: The "philosophical problems" EPR had at their time with this consequence of QT has been answered with the following development of the issue thanks to Bell's work, who found a way to transform the vague philosophical question posed in the EPR paper to a clear scientifically testable hypothesis, and all the experiments testing the corresponding Bell inequalities following from local deterministic hidden-variable theories are contradicting these inequalities in precisely the way as it is predicted by QT.
Would Bell have produced his work without the philosophical discussions by Einstein, Bohr, etc.?

vanhees71 said:
What else then is it, what's still "not understood"? To participate in a scientific discussion, one has to understand, what's discussed!
What else is there to understand? I pointed it out and you repeated it in your post. Five sentences later and you've forgotten what you wrote?

vanhees71 said:
If I get an answer clearly contradicting empirical facts, I think it's legitimate to clarify where I might have misunderstood something and it's also legitimate to critizise such obviously empirically refuted claims.
There is nothing contradicting scientific facts in average-only conservation. Read the papers and ask for help if you need it before making fallacious assertions.
 
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  • #103
Ok, let's start. I'm now reading

https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-020-72817-7

It's clear that both non-relativistic QM and special relativistic QFT are constructed in such a way to be compatible with the underlying spacetime symmetries (Galilei and Poincare symmetries, respectively). So it's no surprise that it predicts that any spin component of a particle has the same spectrum, i.e., ##(-s \hbar, (-s+1)\hbar,\ldots (s-1) \hbar, s \hbar)##.

If I understood the rest of the paper right (restricting myself to the much simpler standard representation in the Methods section rather than the overcomplicated "Mermin-device narrative"), the issue simply is that if you have an entangled spin state and measure spin components in different directions on the two particles, you cannot verify angular-momentum conservation. That's no surprise, and I don't see, where there should be any problem with that. It's also a strange wording to say you change the reference frame just by measuring different spin components.

Concerning angular-momentum conservation this state is due to the decay of a spin-0 particle (in its rest frame) to two spin-1/2 particles, and indeed the total angular momentum stays 0 in this case, and you can verify this conservation law by measuring both particles in the same direction, which can be arbitrarily chosen. That's a special case, because the ##S=0## states are rotational invariant and here indeed all total-spin components take simultaneously the determined value 0.

It's also clear that it makes a difference whether you have prepared the two-particle system in the (unique) spin singulett state, ##1/\sqrt{2} (|ud \rangle-|du \rangle)##, which is of course rotational invariant, because it's the ##S=0## state, or one of the three triplet states ##|S=1,M=1 \rangle=|uu \rangle##, ##|S=1,M=0 \rangle =1/\sqrt{2} (|ud \rangle + |du \rangle)##, and ##|S=1,M=1 \rangle=|dd \rangle##, because this basis is not rotationally invariant but transforms under the ##S=1## representation.

Concerning conservation laws, one of these states is realized by the decay of a spin-1 particle (in its rest frame) to two spin-1/2 particles. To verify the angular-momentum conservation law you have to prepare this mother particle in a specific spin state ##M=1##, ##M=0##, or ##M=-1## for an arbitrary component of the spin (which usually is called the ##z## direction). To verify angular-momentum conservation in the decay process you now have to measure the spin components of both decay products in the same ##z## direction. In any other direction already the spin component of the mother particle has been indetermined and correspondingly the components of the total angular momentum of the decay particles in this direction is indetermined either, but indeed there are the strong correlations in spin measurements in this other direction described by the entanglement of each of the three triplet states. This doesn't imply that the conservation law were valid only on average.

I still miss which problem has been solved by this and similar papers. I still do not understand what Mermin and Weinberg are after claiming there were some physics not understood. The predictions of quantum theory are in accordance with all observations, including the strong correlations due to entanglement. Of course, it "feels" unfamiliar given our experience "trained" by living in a "classical world", but it's to be expected that we find out surprising deviations from our everyday experience, when we consider situations, we are not used to. That's true for the (in)famous relativistic kinematical effects like length contraction, time dilation, "relativity of simultaneity", etc. because we simply don't move with relative velocities close to the speed of light wrt. the Earth as well as for "quantum phenomena", because we never have contact with systems, for which decoherence destroys the correlations described by entanglement between far-distant parts of a quantum system.
 
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  • #104
vanhees71 said:
If I understood the rest of the paper right (restricting myself to the much simpler standard representation in the Methods section rather than the overcomplicated "Mermin-device narrative"),
Well, the part you skipped is what motivated the title of the paper. Mermin's challenge is the reason the rest of the paper was written.

vanhees71 said:
the issue simply is that if you have an entangled spin state and measure spin components in different directions on the two particles, you cannot verify angular-momentum conservation. That's no surprise, and I don't see, where there should be any problem with that. It's also a strange wording to say you change the reference frame just by measuring different spin components.
Brukner and Zeilinger also use this language in "Information and fundamental elements of the structure of quantum theory" where they associate a complete set of complementary spin measurements with a particular reference frame. Establishing what constitutes a reference frame is necessary to using the relativity principle aka "no preferred reference frame" (NPRF), which is the foundation of our answer to Mermin's challenge.

vanhees71 said:
Concerning angular-momentum conservation this state is due to the decay of a spin-0 particle (in its rest frame) to two spin-1/2 particles, and indeed the total angular momentum stays 0 in this case, and you can verify this conservation law by measuring both particles in the same direction, which can be arbitrarily chosen. That's a special case, because the ##S=0## states are rotational invariant and here indeed all total-spin components take simultaneously the determined value 0.

It's also clear that it makes a difference whether you have prepared the two-particle system in the (unique) spin singulett state, ##1/\sqrt{2} (|ud \rangle-|du \rangle)##, which is of course rotational invariant, because it's the ##S=0## state, or one of the three triplet states ##|S=1,M=1 \rangle=|uu \rangle##, ##|S=1,M=0 \rangle =1/\sqrt{2} (|ud \rangle + |du \rangle)##, and ##|S=1,M=1 \rangle=|dd \rangle##, because this basis is not rotationally invariant but transforms under the ##S=1## representation.
Each of the three triplet states is rotationally invariant in a particular plane, as we explain in the paper and I explained in the Insight, "Exploring Bell States and Conservation of Spin Angular Momentum." Putting that together with NPRF per the reference frames of complementary spin measurements tells us that the SU(2) invariance of eigenvalues between different spin measurement operators per Information Invariance & Continuity entails the SO(3) invariance of spin measurement outcomes between those different inertial reference frames. Then add the fact that such measurements are actually measurements of Planck's constant h (Weinberg) and we have an exact analogy with the light postulate, NPRF + c, i.e., we have NPRF + h. So, the "mysteries" of time dilation and length contraction are due to NPRF + c while the "mysterious" Bell state correlations are due to NPRF + h. That's our answer to Mermin's challenge. Very simple, right?

vanhees71 said:
Concerning conservation laws, one of these states is realized by the decay of a spin-1 particle (in its rest frame) to two spin-1/2 particles. To verify the angular-momentum conservation law you have to prepare this mother particle in a specific spin state ##M=1##, ##M=0##, or ##M=-1## for an arbitrary component of the spin (which usually is called the ##z## direction). To verify angular-momentum conservation in the decay process you now have to measure the spin components of both decay products in the same ##z## direction. In any other direction already the spin component of the mother particle has been indetermined and correspondingly the components of the total angular momentum of the decay particles in this direction is indetermined either, but indeed there are the strong correlations in spin measurements in this other direction described by the entanglement of each of the three triplet states. This doesn't imply that the conservation law were valid only on average.
For those who are interested in how one might actually prepare a Bell triplet state, see this paper: Dehlinger, D. & Mitchell, M. Entangled photons, nonlocality, and Bell inequalities in the undergraduate laboratory. American Journal of Physics 70, 903–910 (2002).

vanhees71 said:
I still miss which problem has been solved by this and similar papers. I still do not understand what Mermin and Weinberg are after claiming there were some physics not understood.
Keep in mind that you're simply making a statement of your ignorance here. These and many other highly accomplished physicists did and do discuss issues concerning the understanding of QM. Once you understand what it is that bothers them, then you can address their concerns (if you so choose) rather than simply expressing the fact that you are ignorant of them.

vanhees71 said:
The predictions of quantum theory are in accordance with all observations, including the strong correlations due to entanglement. Of course, it "feels" unfamiliar given our experience "trained" by living in a "classical world", but it's to be expected that we find out surprising deviations from our everyday experience, when we consider situations, we are not used to. That's true for the (in)famous relativistic kinematical effects like length contraction, time dilation, "relativity of simultaneity", etc. because we simply don't move with relative velocities close to the speed of light wrt. the Earth as well as for "quantum phenomena", because we never have contact with systems, for which decoherence destroys the correlations described by entanglement between far-distant parts of a quantum system.
"I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics." Feynman, Probability and Uncertainty; The Quantum Mechanical View of Nature.

"All of modern physics is governed by that magnificent and thoroughly confusing discipline called quantum mechanics. It has survived all tests and there is no reason to believe that there is any flaw in it. We all know how to use it and and how to apply it to problems; and so we have learned to live with the fact that nobody can understand it." Gell-Mann in The Unnatural Nature of Science, p. 144.

"Everybody who has learned quantum mechanics agrees how to use it. 'Shut up and calculate!' There is no ambiguity, no confusion, and spectacular success. What we lack is any consensus about what one is actually talking about as one uses quantum mechanics. There is an unprecedented gap between the abstract terms in which the theory is couched and the phenomena the theory enables us so well to account for. We do not understand the meaning of this strange conceptual apparatus that each of us uses so effectively to deal with our world. ... What the hell are we talking about when we use quantum mechanics? For practical purposes ordinary everyday quantum mechanics is just fine, and what I have to say is of little or no interest. It is my hope to interest those who, like me, are impractical enough always to have been bothered, at least a bit, by not knowing what they are talking about." Mermin, Making Better Sense of Quantum Mechanics. 2019 Rep. Prog. Phys. 82 012002

You may just have to accept the fact that you will never understand what bothered Einstein, Weinberg, Mermin, Gell-Mann, Feynman, and many others about QM. You simply cannot relate, so you have nothing to contribute to such discussions. I wish I could help you!
 
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  • #105
RUTA said:
Well, the part you skipped is what motivated the title of the paper. Mermin's challenge is the reason the rest of the paper was written.Brukner and Zeilinger also use this language in "Information and fundamental elements of the structure of quantum theory" where they associate a complete set of complementary spin measurements with a particular reference frame. Establishing what constitutes a reference frame is necessary to using the relativity principle aka "no preferred reference frame" (NPRF), which is the foundation of our answer to Mermin's challenge.
Well, they use way more conventional language. At least Zeilinger seems to be a Bohrian Copenhagian and thus much more inclined to the orthodox interpretation than using some unusual language.
RUTA said:
Each of the three triplet states is rotationally invariant in a particular plane, as we explain in the paper and I explained in the Insight, "Exploring Bell States and Conservation of Spin Angular Momentum." Putting that together with NPRF per the reference frames of complementary spin measurements tells us that the SU(2) invariance of eigenvalues between different spin measurement operators per Information Invariance & Continuity entails the SO(3) invariance of spin measurement outcomes between those different inertial reference frames. Then add the fact that such measurements are actually measurements of Planck's constant h (Weinberg) and we have an exact analogy with the light postulate, NPRF + c, i.e., we have NPRF + h. So, the "mysteries" of time dilation and length contraction are due to NPRF + c while the "mysterious" Bell state correlations are due to NPRF + h. That's our answer to Mermin's challenge. Very simple, right?
Of course the states are invariant under rotation around the "quantization axis". This is also no mystery but follows from the representation theory of the rotation group or rather its covering group SU(2).
RUTA said:
For those who are interested in how one might actually prepare a Bell triplet state, see this paper: Dehlinger, D. & Mitchell, M. Entangled photons, nonlocality, and Bell inequalities in the undergraduate laboratory. American Journal of Physics 70, 903–910 (2002).Keep in mind that you're simply making a statement of your ignorance here. These and many other highly accomplished physicists did and do discuss issues concerning the understanding of QM. Once you understand what it is that bothers them, then you can address their concerns (if you so choose) rather than simply expressing the fact that you are ignorant of them.
Indeed, I don't understand, where the problem is. That's why I'm asking!
RUTA said:
"I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics." Feynman, Probability and Uncertainty; The Quantum Mechanical View of Nature.

"All of modern physics is governed by that magnificent and thoroughly confusing discipline called quantum mechanics. It has survived all tests and there is no reason to believe that there is any flaw in it. We all know how to use it and and how to apply it to problems; and so we have learned to live with the fact that nobody can understand it." Gell-Mann in The Unnatural Nature of Science, p. 144.
Again, I don't understand what Gell-Mann thinks is not understood. Of course all these celebreties of science you quote have very well understood quantum mechanics (including Einstein, who was an opponent against it). So what are Feynman and Gell-Mann find incomplete in our understanding given that QT is the most comprehensive and so far never empirically falsified theory about nature we have? The only thing not understood is a satisfactory quantum description of gravitation, but that's obviously not what they are after in these statements.
RUTA said:
"Everybody who has learned quantum mechanics agrees how to use it. 'Shut up and calculate!' There is no ambiguity, no confusion, and spectacular success. What we lack is any consensus about what one is actually talking about as one uses quantum mechanics. There is an unprecedented gap between the abstract terms in which the theory is couched and the phenomena the theory enables us so well to account for. We do not understand the meaning of this strange conceptual apparatus that each of us uses so effectively to deal with our world. ... What the hell are we talking about when we use quantum mechanics? For practical purposes ordinary everyday quantum mechanics is just fine, and what I have to say is of little or no interest. It is my hope to interest those who, like me, are impractical enough always to have been bothered, at least a bit, by not knowing what they are talking about." Mermin, Making Better Sense of Quantum Mechanics. 2019 Rep. Prog. Phys. 82 012002
What meaning? It's well known what we are talking about, i.e., devices to set up and observe "quantum systems" of various kinds. QT precisely predicts the outcomes of these measurements, and there are no cases, where the predictions of QT turned out to be wrong.
RUTA said:
You may just have to accept the fact that you will never understand what bothered Einstein, Weinberg, Mermin, Gell-Mann, Feynman, and many others about QM. You simply cannot relate, so you have nothing to contribute to such discussions. I wish I could help you!
:-(
 
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  • #106
RUTA is insisting that the nobody understands quantum mechanics. Esp how it relates to the 'classical' world.
Vanhees71 is insisting that QT is fine and everybody understands quantum theory as it's almost a complete theory that makes the best predictions in the history of physics. Vanhees71 is saying that nobody understands reality and it's not even a duty of science to make reality comprehensible.
RUTA, you understand that Vanhees71 does not claim to understand how reality is, why it is the way it is? Right?
Because it seems you imply Vanhees71 is saying things he never intended to say. He flat out rejects discussion about philosophy. Not even once has he implied that he knows how and what reality is. Not even once.
Your philosophical musings seem to irk him because you seem to insist on having a Newtonian Universe which does not even exist. And it seems it never existed at all. He grapples with the same issues but from a wholly different perspective. I guess everybody wonders about entanglement... but here I wi side with Vanhees71. I worry about it all but from the POV of all reality. Entanglement is almost a minor issue given the failure of realism at the quantum scales.
 
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  • #107
CoolMint said:
RUTA is insisting that the nobody understands quantum mechanics. Esp how it relates to the 'classical' world.
Vanhees71 is insisting that QT is fine and everybody understands quantum theory as it's almost a complete theory that makes the best predictions in the history of physics. Vanhees71 is saying that nobody understands reality and it's not even a duty of science to make reality comprehensible.
RUTA, you understand that Vanhees71 does not claim to understand how reality is, why it is the way it is? Right?
Because it seems you imply Vanhees71 is saying things he never intended to say. He flat out rejects discussion about philosophy. Not even once has he implied that he knows how and what reality is. Not even once.
Your philosophical musings seem to irk him because you seem to insist on having a Newtonian Universe which does not even exist. And it seems it never existed at all. He grapples with the same issues but from a wholly different perspective. I guess everybody wonders about entanglement... but here I wi side with Vanhees71. I worry about it all but from the POV of all reality. Entanglement is almost a minor issue given the failure of realism at the quantum scales.
If you reject philosophical discussion, this forum "Quantum Interpretations and Foundations" is not the place to be. It's all about philosophical perspectives on QM.

I never said I advocated a Newtonian Universe. Not even close. I advocate the relativity principle at the foundation of QM, just as it exists at the foundation of SR. Neither of those theories is Newtonian.
 
  • #108
CoolMint said:
Your philosophical musings seem to irk him because you seem to insist on having a Newtonian Universe which does not even exist. And it seems it never existed at all. He grapples with the same issues but from a wholly different perspective. I guess everybody wonders about entanglement... but here I wi side with Vanhees71. I worry about it all but from the POV of all reality. Entanglement is almost a minor issue given the failure of realism at the quantum scales.
What irks me is when for some irrational "philosophical" reasons elementary observable facts, which don't need any vaguely defined interpretational notions, are denied. The claim that the conservation laws are "valid only on average" has been refuted by Bothe et al already about 100 years ago!

Otherwise it's clear that entanglement and particularly its experimental realization is intriguing, but it only seems "weird", because we are not used to quantum phenomena in everyday life. For me, scientific theories are descriptions of what can be objectively and quantitatively observed, and QT is very successful with that, including the correlations due to entanglement, and that's thus very well understood.
 
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  • #109
RUTA said:
And why this particular generalized probability theory? There are others besides QM.

That could be a fruitful line of research. If I was interested in research work (far too old now other than things that interest me from time to time) it could be something I could really get into.

Thanks
Bill
 
  • #110
Fra said:
So let me rephrase the question of "why these laws" into "why do we abduce these laws and not others".

When Feynman said, we guess them, everyone in the audience laughed. He then became stern and serious, saying that is how it is done. As to the why of certain guesses, I leave that to psychiatrists and psychologists, both legitimate scientific research areas. Symmetry is the one that enthrals me.

Thanks
Bill
 
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  • #111
vanhees71 said:
What irks me is when for some irrational "philosophical" reasons elementary observable facts, which don't need any vaguely defined interpretational notions, are denied. The claim that the conservation laws are "valid only on average" has been refuted by Bothe et al already about 100 years ago!

Otherwise it's clear that entanglement and particularly its experimental realization is intriguing, but it only seems "weird", because we are not used to quantum phenomena in everyday life. For me, scientific theories are descriptions of what can be objectively and quantitatively observed, and QT is very successful with that, including the correlations due to entanglement, and that's thus very well understood.
Let me try again, since this is directly relevant to the OP. "Average-only" conservation, which is a mathematical fact about Bell states, seems to be confusing vanhees71, so I'll go straight to the source of that fact, i.e., "average-only" projection aka Information Invariance & Continuity aka superposition aka spin aka the qubit aka ... . What I'm presenting next will probably not make any sense to those who haven't taken QM. That's good, it will make my point all the better. For those readers, just read the words and gloss right over the mathematics. No worries, I'll follow the Hilbert space formalism with a conceptual explanation that you can (probably) understand. That's the point of this exercise.

Suppose I make a measurement on a spin up state along the z axis. We might do that physically by sending a beam of silver atoms through a pair of Stern-Gerlach (SG) magnets aligned along what we call the z axis. Then we direct the atoms that are deflected upwards out of those SG magnets through another pair of SG magnets oriented at ##\hat{b}## making a an angle ##\theta## with respect to ##\hat{z}## (figure below). How does QM describe the outcomes of that measurement at ##\hat{b}##?

Figure1.png


The state being measured is ##|\psi\rangle = |z+\rangle## and there are two possible outcomes of our measurement that I will call +1 (deflected towards red pole of SG magnets) denoted by ##|+\rangle## and -1 (deflected towards green pole of SG magnets) denoted by ##|-\rangle##. The Hilbert space formalism says the probability of getting the +1 outcome is ##|\langle+|\psi\rangle|^2 = \cos^2{\left(\frac{\theta}{2}\right)}## and the probability of getting the -1 outcome is ##|\langle-|\psi\rangle|^2 = \sin^2{\left(\frac{\theta}{2}\right)}## (Born rule). These are just the squares of the projection of ##|\psi\rangle = |z+\rangle## onto the two eigenvectors of our measurement operator ##\sigma## given by ##\sigma = \hat{b}\cdot\vec{\sigma}=b_x\sigma_x + b_y\sigma_y + b_z\sigma_z## where ##\sigma_x##, ##\sigma_y##, ##\sigma_z## are the Pauli matrices. The average is then given by the expectation value of ##\sigma## for ##|\psi\rangle##, i.e.,
##\langle\sigma\rangle := \langle \psi| \sigma|\psi \rangle = \cos{(\theta)}##​
All of that is standard textbook QM. For physicists like vanhees71 this constitutes "understanding":
For me, scientific theories are descriptions of what can be objectively and quantitatively observed, and QT is very successful with that, including the correlations due to entanglement, and that's thus very well understood.
However, if you who are not familiar with standard textbook QM, this quote by Chris Fuchs might resonant with you:
Associated with each system [in quantum mechanics] is a complex vector space. Vectors, tensor products, all of these things. Compare that to one of our other great physical theories, special relativity. One could make the statement of it in terms of some very crisp and clear physical principles: The speed of light is constant in all inertial frames, and the laws of physics are the same in all inertial frames. And it struck me that if we couldn’t take the structure of quantum theory and change it from this very overt mathematical speak—something that didn’t look to have much physical content at all, in a way that anyone could identify with some kind of physical principle—if we couldn’t turn that into something like this, then the debate would go on forever and ever. And it seemed like a worthwhile exercise to try to reduce the mathematical structure of quantum mechanics to some crisp physical statements.
That's what Gell-Mann, Feynman, and Mermin were talking about in their quotes I posted earlier. All of these people are very familiar with the textbook QM formalism, so what they mean by "understanding QM" goes beyond the mere formalism.

In response to this challenge by Fuchs, Hardy (and subsequently many others) are trying to "reconstruct" QM using principles rather than the pure math a la above. They chose principles from information theory while treating QM as a "general" probability theory. Luckily, we don't have to understand their reconstructions in detail, all we need is one part of what they discovered and we can understand that conceptually.

What they found originated with the first such "axiomatic reconstruction of QM based on information-theoretic principles" published by Hardy in 2001, Quantum Theory from Five Reasonable Axioms. What Hardy discovered was that by deleting one word ("continuous") from his fifth axiom, he would have classical probability theory instead of quantum probability theory. Thus, this quote from Koberinski and Mueller in an earlier post:
We suggest that (continuous) reversibility may be the postulate which comes closest to being a candidate for a glimpse on the genuinely physical kernel of ``quantum reality''. Even though Fuchs may want to set a higher threshold for a ``glimpse of quantum reality'', this postulate is quite surprising from the point of view of classical physics: when we have a discrete system that can be in a finite number of perfectly distinguishable alternatives, then one would classically expect that reversible evolution must be discrete too. For example, a single bit can only ever be flipped, which is a discrete indivisible operation. Not so in quantum theory: the state |0> of a qubit can be continuously-reversibly ``moved over'' to the state |1>. For people without knowledge of quantum theory (but of classical information theory), this may appear as surprising or ``paradoxical'' as Einstein's light postulate sounds to people without knowledge of relativity.
Now let me use what they discovered about "continuity", plus the relativity principle, to provide what Fuchs and others see as missing in the math above concerning spin measurements. Of course, there is more to QM, but I'm focusing here on the OP and vanhees71's confusion.

The classical probability theory we're comparing to quantum probability theory has to do with the "classical bit," which can be instantiated many ways physically, but for simplicity let's just look at two boxes and one ball. I have two measurement options, I can open box 1 or I can open box 2. I have two possible outcomes for each measurement, +1 meaning it contains a ball or -1 meaning it doesn't contain a ball. [Sometimes people use +1 and 0, as in the K-M quote, thinking of 1's and 0's for a computer, for example. I'll stick to +1 and -1 here for reasons that will be clear later.] Since the ball is in one of the two boxes, the probability that it is in box 1 plus the probability that it is in box 2 must equal 100%, i.e., ##p_1 + p_2 = 1##. So, we can represent the probability space as a line connecting the fact that the ball is in box 2 (##p_2 = 1##) and the fact that the ball is in box 1 (##p_1 = 1##) (figure below).
ClassicalBit.jpg

The key feature of this probability pointed out by Hardy (and employed in many reconstructions since) is that there are only two actual measurements represented in the probability space for the classical bit depicted here, i.e., those along each axis. The points along the line connecting those two "pure states" are "mixtures", they don't actually represent a measurement because you can't open a box "between" boxes 1 and 2.

In contrast, the quantum version of a bit ("qubit") allows for pure states to be connected in continuous fashion by other pure states. Here is Brukner and Zeilinger's picture of the qubit for our QM formalism above:

BlochSphere.jpg

As you can see, we are allowed to rotate our SG magnets for our ##\sigma## measurement of ##|\psi\rangle## and we have a measurement at every ##\theta## in continuous fashion, always obtaining one of two outcomes, +1 or -1. To relate this to typical QM terminology, this is superposition per the qubit representing spin. To relate this to the information-theoretic terminology, this is Information Invariance & Continuity per Brukner and Zeilinger:

The total information of one bit is invariant under a continuous change between different complete sets of mutually complementary measurements.

where the "mutually complementary spin measurements" here are the orthogonal set for each ##\theta## as shown in this figure

ComplementaryBases.png
Now let's finish this conceptual understanding of Information Invariance & Continuity aka spin aka the qubit by looking at what makes the difference between the qubit and classical bit "weird." I'll characterize that "weird" empirical fact by "average-only" projection, justify it by the relativity principle, and we're done!

If we were to try to understand what is going on with our spin example above, we might suppose that the silver atoms are tiny magnetic dipoles being deflected by the SG magnetic field. If that is the case, we expect the amount of deflection to vary depending on how the atoms are oriented relative to the SG magnet field as they enter it. Here is a figure from Knight's intro physics text for that "classical" picture:

SternGerlach.JPG

The problem with this picture is of course that we only ever get two deflections, i.e., up or down, relative to the SG magnets. Even when we chose a specific case ##|\psi\rangle = |z+\rangle## and measured at ##\hat{b}## we still always got +1 or -1, no fractions (again, look at qubit picture). What we expected per our classical model would be a fractional deflection along ##\hat{b}## like this:

Projection.png


But, guess what that projection equals ... ##\cos{\theta}## ... exactly what QM gives as the average of the +1 and -1 outcomes overall, ##\langle \sigma \rangle##. And, if you start with this expectation for ##\sigma##, you can derive the ##\cos^2{\left(\frac{\theta}{2}\right)}## and ##\sin^2{\left(\frac{\theta}{2}\right)}## probabilities by requiring additionally that the probabilities add to 1 (called "normalization"). Notice that since we can only ever get +1 or -1, no fractions, we cannot ever measure ##\cos{\theta}## directly. That is to say, the projected value can only obtain on average. This means the standard textbook formalism of QM for the spin qubit can be characterized as "average-only" projection. Thus, the probabilities of our Hilbert space mathematics can be understood to follow from "average-only" projection, which is an empirical fact.

Again, we haven't introduced any interpretations or opinions or proposals here. We're simply characterizing the QM formalism conceptually. And, "average-only" conservation is exactly the same, we just replace the counterfactual ##\hat{b} = \hat{z}## measurement outcome for Bob's single qubit experiment here with the counterfactual ##\hat{b} = \hat{a}## measurement outcome (required for conservation of spin angular momentum) for Bob when Alice measures at ##\hat{a}##. In other words, "average-only" conservation for Bell state qubits results from "average-only" projection for single qubits. This is not an interpretation.

To conclude, as Weinberg pointed out, we are measuring Planck's constant h when we do our spin measurement. And, we are in different reference frames related by spatial rotations as we vary ##\theta## (per Brukner and Zeilinger). So, Information Invariance & Continuity entails everyone will measure the same value for h (##\pm##) regardless of their reference frame orientation relative to the source ("Planck postulate" -- an empirical fact equivalent to the light postulate of SR: everyone will measure the same value for c regardless of their reference frame motion relative to the source). Both are simply statements of empirical facts. Thus, everything presented to this point constitutes a collection of empirical and mathematical facts per standard textbook QM.

Finally, we give a principle account of the mathematical facts following from the empirical fact a la Einstein for SR. That is, we justify the "Planck postulate" by the relativity principle. Just as time dilation and length contraction follow mathematically from the light postulate which is justified by the relativity principle, the qubit probabilities (whence "average-only" conservation) follow mathematically from the Planck postulate which is justified by the relativity principle. This last step is indeed a proposal, but it's as solid as what Einstein did for SR :-)
 
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  • #112
bhobba said:
When Feynman said, we guess them, everyone in the audience laughed. He then became stern and serious, saying that is how it is done. As to the why of certain guesses, I leave that to psychiatrists and psychologists, both legitimate scientific research areas. Symmetry is the one that enthrals me.

Thanks
Bill
I'd also say, that is as if you asked, how was a genius like Beethoven getting his ideas to compose his symphonies. As works of art, to discover physical theories to describe observed phenomena (as well as the invention of clever experiments to make the corresponding observations) is a creative act. You cannot explain, how Feynman came to his idea of the "space-time picture" of quantum mechanics (PhD thesis) and QED (Nobel prize).
 
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  • #113
RUTA said:
Let me try again, since this is directly relevant to the OP. "Average-only" conservation, which is a mathematical fact about Bell states, seems to be confusing vanhees71, so I'll go straight to the source of that fact, i.e., "average-only" projection aka Information Invariance & Continuity aka superposition aka spin aka the qubit aka ... .
The statistics of measurements on Bell states consist of operations with single quantum systems (e.g., two entangled photons) event-by-event, and the conservation laws hold event by event. E.g., if you have a polarization-singlet two-photon state and you measure, e.g., the linear polarization of the two photons in the same direction you must always get opposite results, because the total angular momentum of the two-photon states is 0. Of course, to verify this, you must repeat the same experiment very often to gain sufficient statistics to meet your goal of statistical significance. That doesn't imply that the conservation laws hold only on average.
RUTA said:
What I'm presenting next will probably not make any sense to those who haven't taken QM. That's good, it will make my point all the better. For those readers, just read the words and gloss right over the mathematics. No worries, I'll follow the Hilbert space formalism with a conceptual explanation that you can (probably) understand. That's the point of this exercise.

Suppose I make a measurement on a spin up state along the z axis. We might do that physically by sending a beam of silver atoms through a pair of Stern-Gerlach (SG) magnets aligned along what we call the z axis. Then we direct the atoms that are deflected upwards out of those SG magnets through another pair of SG magnets oriented at ##\hat{b}## making a an angle ##\theta## with respect to ##\hat{z}## (figure below). How does QM describe the outcomes of that measurement at ##\hat{b}##?

View attachment 305358

The state being measured is ##|\psi\rangle = |z+\rangle## and there are two possible outcomes of our measurement that I will call +1 (deflected towards red pole of SG magnets) denoted by ##|+\rangle## and -1 (deflected towards green pole of SG magnets) denoted by ##|-\rangle##. The Hilbert space formalism says the probability of getting the +1 outcome is ##|\langle+|\psi\rangle|^2 = \cos^2{\left(\frac{\theta}{2}\right)}## and the probability of getting the -1 outcome is ##|\langle-|\psi\rangle|^2 = \sin^2{\left(\frac{\theta}{2}\right)}## (Born rule). These are just the squares of the projection of ##|\psi\rangle = |z+\rangle## onto the two eigenvectors of our measurement operator ##\sigma## given by ##\sigma = \hat{b}\cdot\vec{\sigma}=b_x\sigma_x + b_y\sigma_y + b_z\sigma_z## where ##\sigma_x##, ##\sigma_y##, ##\sigma_z## are the Pauli matrices. The average is then given by the expectation value of ##\sigma## for ##|\psi\rangle##, i.e.,
##\langle\sigma\rangle := \langle \psi| \sigma|\psi \rangle = \cos{(\theta)}##​
All of that is standard textbook QM. For physicists like vanhees71 this constitutes "understanding":
Indeed. What else do you need? That's all what has been ever observed in Stern-Gerlach experiments (including those much more accurate ones like using a Penning trap to measure the electron Lande g-factor to 12 (or more?) digits of accuracy.
RUTA said:
However, if you who are not familiar with standard textbook QM, this quote by Chris Fuchs might resonant with you:

That's what Gell-Mann, Feynman, and Mermin were talking about in their quotes I posted earlier. All of these people are very familiar with the textbook QM formalism, so what they mean by "understanding QM" goes beyond the mere formalism.
What goes beyond the "mere formalism" and its application to real-world experiment is not subject to the objective natural sciences. An indication for that is that it seems impossible to clearly state, what "the problem" is.
RUTA said:
In response to this challenge by Fuchs, Hardy (and subsequently many others) are trying to "reconstruct" QM using principles rather than the pure math a la above. They chose principles from information theory while treating QM as a "general" probability theory. Luckily, we don't have to understand their reconstructions in detail, all we need is one part of what they discovered and we can understand that conceptually.
Of course, an information theoretical approach to any kind of probabilistic description is an important aspect to understand the physics it describes. The claim that we "don't have to understand the reconstructions in detail" is another indication that here we leave the realm of exact science.
RUTA said:
What they found originated with the first such "axiomatic reconstruction of QM based on information-theoretic principles" published by Hardy in 2001, Quantum Theory from Five Reasonable Axioms. What Hardy discovered was that by deleting one word ("continuous") from his fifth axiom, he would have classical probability theory instead of quantum probability theory. Thus, this quote from Koberinski and Mueller in an earlier post:

Now let me use what they discovered about "continuity", plus the relativity principle, to provide what Fuchs and others see as missing in the math above concerning spin measurements. Of course, there is more to QM, but I'm focusing here on the OP and vanhees71's confusion.

The classical probability theory we're comparing to quantum probability theory has to do with the "classical bit," which can be instantiated many ways physically, but for simplicity let's just look at two boxes and one ball. I have two measurement options, I can open box 1 or I can open box 2. I have two possible outcomes for each measurement, +1 meaning it contains a ball or -1 meaning it doesn't contain a ball. [Sometimes people use +1 and 0, as in the K-M quote, thinking of 1's and 0's for a computer, for example. I'll stick to +1 and -1 here for reasons that will be clear later.] Since the ball is in one of the two boxes, the probability that it is in box 1 plus the probability that it is in box 2 must equal 100%, i.e., ##p_1 + p_2 = 1##. So, we can represent the probability space as a line connecting the fact that the ball is in box 2 (##p_2 = 1##) and the fact that the ball is in box 1 (##p_1 = 1##) (figure below).
View attachment 305366
The key feature of this probability pointed out by Hardy (and employed in many reconstructions since) is that there are only two actual measurements represented in the probability space for the classical bit depicted here, i.e., those along each axis. The points along the line connecting those two "pure states" are "mixtures", they don't actually represent a measurement because you can't open a box "between" boxes 1 and 2.
This I don't understand. It depends on the preparation of the system before measurement, which probabilities, ##p_1## and ##p_2=1-p_1## you'll find when repeating the experiment often enough to measure these probabilities at a given level of statistical significance. That's true for both "classical" and "quantum" probabilities.
RUTA said:
In contrast, the quantum version of a bit ("qubit") allows for pure states to be connected in continuous fashion by other pure states. Here is Brukner and Zeilinger's picture of the qubit for our QM formalism above:

View attachment 305367
As you can see, we are allowed to rotate our SG magnets for our ##\sigma## measurement of ##|\psi\rangle## and we have a measurement at every ##\theta## in continuous fashion, always obtaining one of two outcomes, +1 or -1. To relate this to typical QM terminology, this is superposition per the qubit representing spin. To relate this to the information-theoretic terminology, this is Information Invariance & Continuity per Brukner and Zeilinger:
where the "mutually complementary spin measurements" here are the orthogonal set for each ##\theta## as shown in this figure

View attachment 305369Now let's finish this conceptual understanding of Information Invariance & Continuity aka spin aka the qubit by looking at what makes the difference between the qubit and classical bit "weird." I'll characterize that "weird" empirical fact by "average-only" projection, justify it by the relativity principle, and we're done!
What do you mean by "average-only projection"? If you measure the spin component in any arbitrary direction (by the way completely determined with two angles ##(\vartheta,\varphi)## indicating the unit vector determining that direction) precisely, you always find either a value ##\hbar/2## or ##-\hbar/2## in each event, independent of the (pure or mixed) state you prepared the particle's spin in. The probabilities are given by the statistical operator describing this state prepared before measurement.
RUTA said:
If we were to try to understand what is going on with our spin example above, we might suppose that the silver atoms are tiny magnetic dipoles being deflected by the SG magnetic field. If that is the case, we expect the amount of deflection to vary depending on how the atoms are oriented relative to the SG magnet field as they enter it. Here is a figure from Knight's intro physics text for that "classical" picture:

View attachment 305370
The problem with this picture is of course that we only ever get two deflections, i.e., up or down, relative to the SG magnets. Even when we chose a specific case ##|\psi\rangle = |z+\rangle## and measured at ##\hat{b}## we still always got +1 or -1, no fractions (again, look at qubit picture). What we expected per our classical model would be a fractional deflection along ##\hat{b}## like this:

View attachment 305371

But, guess what that projection equals ... ##\cos{\theta}## ... exactly what QM gives as the average of the +1 and -1 outcomes overall, ##\langle \sigma \rangle##. And, if you start with this expectation for ##\sigma##, you can derive the ##\cos^2{\left(\frac{\theta}{2}\right)}## and ##\sin^2{\left(\frac{\theta}{2}\right)}## probabilities by requiring additionally that the probabilities add to 1 (called "normalization"). Notice that since we can only ever get +1 or -1, no fractions, we cannot ever measure ##\cos{\theta}## directly. That is to say, the projected value can only obtain on average. This means the standard textbook formalism of QM for the spin qubit can be characterized as "average-only" projection. Thus, the probabilities of our Hilbert space mathematics can be understood to follow from "average-only" projection, which is an empirical fact.
Of course, quantum theory provides different (probabilistic predictions than a classical model of the electron. It was Stern's very motivation to do this experiment. It was not even clear, what the prediction of the ("old" quantum theory!) was: Should one get two or three discrete lines (Bohr vs. Sommerfeld) or a continuum (classical physics).
RUTA said:
Again, we haven't introduced any interpretations or opinions or proposals here. We're simply characterizing the QM formalism conceptually. And, "average-only" conservation is exactly the same, we just replace the counterfactual ##\hat{b} = \hat{z}## measurement outcome for Bob's single qubit experiment here with the counterfactual ##\hat{b} = \hat{a}## measurement outcome (required for conservation of spin angular momentum) for Bob when Alice measures at ##\hat{a}##. In other words, "average-only" conservation for Bell state qubits results from "average-only" projection for single qubits. This is not an interpretation.
But you can check the conservation laws only for one component, because determining one component of the spin implies that any other component is indetermined, because components in different direction are incompatible observables. Also you can measure only one spin direction, i.e., you can only choose one direction by the magnetic field. You never measure two components of the spin in different directions on a single particle. This you can achieve only on an ensemble. If you test the conservation law for angular momentum you can do that event-by-event only when measuring the spins of the two particles in a single direction. Any other measurement gives random results with probabilities given by Born's rule, given the (pure or mixed) state the particles' spin is prepared in before measurement.
RUTA said:
To conclude, as Weinberg pointed out, we are measuring Planck's constant h when we do our spin measurement. And, we are in different reference frames related by spatial rotations as we vary ##\theta## (per Brukner and Zeilinger). So, Information Invariance & Continuity entails everyone will measure the same value for h (##\pm##) regardless of their reference frame orientation relative to the source ("Planck postulate" -- an empirical fact equivalent to the light postulate of SR: everyone will measure the same value for c regardless of their reference frame motion relative to the source). Both are simply statements of empirical facts. Thus, everything presented to this point constitutes a collection of empirical and mathematical facts per standard textbook QM.
You are not in different reference frames. For that you'd have to use moving Stern-Gerlach magnets. Due to Galilei invariance the outcome of the measurements do not depend on the choice of the reference frame (defined, e.g., by the restframe of the magnets). The description of the same experiment in one frame is just a unitary transformation (given by the usual ray representation of the Gailei group for a particle with the given mass and spin). The same, of course, holds for Poincare invariance in the relativistic case (where however you have to be careful with the definition of "spin"; here you can only measure the total angular momentum of the electron, not the spin since the split into spin and orbital angular momentum is frame dependent).
RUTA said:
Finally, we give a principle account of the mathematical facts following from the empirical fact a la Einstein for SR. That is, we justify the "Planck postulate" by the relativity principle. Just as time dilation and length contraction follow mathematically from the light postulate which is justified by the relativity principle, the qubit probabilities (whence "average-only" conservation) follow mathematically from the Planck postulate which is justified by the relativity principle. This last step is indeed a proposal, but it's as solid as what Einstein did for SR :-)
That there's one and only one frame-independent value for Planck's constant, ##\hbar=h/(2 \pi)##, is implemented in the realization of either non-relativistic or relativistic QT. That has nothing to do with "average-only conservation", which claim contradicts all observations made so far.
 
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  • #114
I am guessing Karl Popper would be proud of you both 🙂 I do understand but doesn't share the stance as optimal.
bhobba said:
When Feynman said, we guess them, everyone in the audience laughed. He then became stern and serious, saying that is how it is done.
About laughing, the exact same thing happened to smolin as he held a talk SETI about the evolution of law and the principle of prescedence.



/Fredrik
 
  • #115
vanhees71 said:
I'd also say, that is as if you asked, how was a genius like Beethoven getting his ideas to compose his symphonies.
My comment on this comment is that I see it similar to those who in misinterpreted "observers knowledge" as something having to do with human brain or consciusness.

At human level, of course Feyman is right. And its not the job of physicists to model human intelligence. It is definitely not what anyone means.

But do we have to stop there, or are rhere further insights to get? This is where we disagree.

1) Observers knowledge is encoded in the physical observer side of the cut. Making it a relation or contextual. This has nothing todo with brains. I guess we agree here?

But in QM the observerside is always dominant and classical. We know how to explain interactions between classical objects but the background independent description of nonclassical systema is missing.

Is this satisfactory? Some of us say yes, but I say no.

/Fredrik
 
  • #116
I don't understand why this is a question of interpretation. We have mathematics to describe the mechanism and why it happens: the state of two entangled particles is one state. A particle's quanta are described by information that is simultaneously also information of the other particle. The mechanism creating entanglement is simply whenever the observed rules of quantum physics dictate that their states depend on the same events (history of quanta), is that right or not? If not, let me know - otherwise I fail to see the relevance of interpretations.
 
  • #117
Maarten Havinga said:
I fail to see the relevance of interpretations.
1) If one takes the view that we have an effective theory that is corroborated for certain domains, there isn't much to say about this. It is great and useful no matter how you interpret it. For some this is enough and we do not ask for more.

2) But some of us are obsessed with cravings for a unified theory or coherent understanding. We have now set of various theories whose parameters are on empirically determined, and they have also different constructing principles that are not obviously compatible while it seems reasonable to think that they will have some relation at different energy scales or observational scales, there is an urge for finding a coherent framework which is consistent when it comes to constructing principles. In this context, interpolating or extending theories naturally is interpretatation dependent.

3) Some other may also seek an pure interpretation without ambition to extend or reconstruct anything, for reasons such as casting a given theory to personal preferences.

I belong to the second group. An image is forming where other members here fall into other categories.

/Fredrik
 
  • #118
Fra said:
I belong to the second group
Me too. Only about how entanglement is created I thought it is quite much known, or am I wrong there?
 
  • #119
While I dislike the tone of "shut up and calculate", it is good to understand the mathematics well before arguing in interpretations or other less exact wordy definitions. For instance the poincare group being generated by the Lorentz transformations and translations is proof enough that special relativity gives no contradictions.

I don't know for sure if it applies here, but I thought it does.
 
Last edited:
  • #120
Fra said:
But some of us are obsessed with cravings for a unified theory or coherent understanding.
What's the obsession? The delusion of objectivity?
 

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