What is the mechanism behind Quantum Entanglement?

  • #101
vanhees71 said:
But it's not "philosophy" which evolves the natural sciences but ever more precise observation and theory building based on that observations.
Over time, it indirectly does as philosophy has evolved the scientifid method. Long time ago in the dark ages a probable opinion, was simply that of an educated person or authority, and the careful person would not oppose. Philosophical reasoning lead to search for a more "rational beliefs" that was was quantitative and more objective, which lead to probability theory for example. In this sense, the foundation of scientic method follows from philosophical arguments.

vanhees71 said:
No, experiment and theory are in close relationship, but theorists must be careful not to loose contact to the established empirical facts
100% agreed. But we must not confused actualy raw empirical facts with abduced beliefs, which I think is often done.

/Fredrik
 
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  • #102
vanhees71 said:
Well, I'd like to understand, what these problems might be. Theoretical physics is about the mathematical description of the observable objective phenomena of Nature. QT is the hitherto most comprehensive model describing all hitherto known matter. The question, why the natural laws are as we observe them cannot be answered by the scientific method.
We're not trying to answer that question by the scientific method. Did you happen to check the name of the forum you're posting in? Quantum Interpretations and Foundations is not restricted to what can be known by the scientific method. These topics have a strong philosophical bent. If you are not interested in discussing such issues, you do not have to be here telling everyone that you're not interested. Do you also visit forums on how to play chess and tell them they're not discussing the scientific method?

vanhees71 said:
Entanglement and the implied long-range strong correlations between far-distantly observed parts of an entangled system is indeed a good example: The "philosophical problems" EPR had at their time with this consequence of QT has been answered with the following development of the issue thanks to Bell's work, who found a way to transform the vague philosophical question posed in the EPR paper to a clear scientifically testable hypothesis, and all the experiments testing the corresponding Bell inequalities following from local deterministic hidden-variable theories are contradicting these inequalities in precisely the way as it is predicted by QT.
Would Bell have produced his work without the philosophical discussions by Einstein, Bohr, etc.?

vanhees71 said:
What else then is it, what's still "not understood"? To participate in a scientific discussion, one has to understand, what's discussed!
What else is there to understand? I pointed it out and you repeated it in your post. Five sentences later and you've forgotten what you wrote?

vanhees71 said:
If I get an answer clearly contradicting empirical facts, I think it's legitimate to clarify where I might have misunderstood something and it's also legitimate to critizise such obviously empirically refuted claims.
There is nothing contradicting scientific facts in average-only conservation. Read the papers and ask for help if you need it before making fallacious assertions.
 
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  • #103
Ok, let's start. I'm now reading

https://doi.org/10.1038/s41598-020-72817-7

It's clear that both non-relativistic QM and special relativistic QFT are constructed in such a way to be compatible with the underlying spacetime symmetries (Galilei and Poincare symmetries, respectively). So it's no surprise that it predicts that any spin component of a particle has the same spectrum, i.e., ##(-s \hbar, (-s+1)\hbar,\ldots (s-1) \hbar, s \hbar)##.

If I understood the rest of the paper right (restricting myself to the much simpler standard representation in the Methods section rather than the overcomplicated "Mermin-device narrative"), the issue simply is that if you have an entangled spin state and measure spin components in different directions on the two particles, you cannot verify angular-momentum conservation. That's no surprise, and I don't see, where there should be any problem with that. It's also a strange wording to say you change the reference frame just by measuring different spin components.

Concerning angular-momentum conservation this state is due to the decay of a spin-0 particle (in its rest frame) to two spin-1/2 particles, and indeed the total angular momentum stays 0 in this case, and you can verify this conservation law by measuring both particles in the same direction, which can be arbitrarily chosen. That's a special case, because the ##S=0## states are rotational invariant and here indeed all total-spin components take simultaneously the determined value 0.

It's also clear that it makes a difference whether you have prepared the two-particle system in the (unique) spin singulett state, ##1/\sqrt{2} (|ud \rangle-|du \rangle)##, which is of course rotational invariant, because it's the ##S=0## state, or one of the three triplet states ##|S=1,M=1 \rangle=|uu \rangle##, ##|S=1,M=0 \rangle =1/\sqrt{2} (|ud \rangle + |du \rangle)##, and ##|S=1,M=1 \rangle=|dd \rangle##, because this basis is not rotationally invariant but transforms under the ##S=1## representation.

Concerning conservation laws, one of these states is realized by the decay of a spin-1 particle (in its rest frame) to two spin-1/2 particles. To verify the angular-momentum conservation law you have to prepare this mother particle in a specific spin state ##M=1##, ##M=0##, or ##M=-1## for an arbitrary component of the spin (which usually is called the ##z## direction). To verify angular-momentum conservation in the decay process you now have to measure the spin components of both decay products in the same ##z## direction. In any other direction already the spin component of the mother particle has been indetermined and correspondingly the components of the total angular momentum of the decay particles in this direction is indetermined either, but indeed there are the strong correlations in spin measurements in this other direction described by the entanglement of each of the three triplet states. This doesn't imply that the conservation law were valid only on average.

I still miss which problem has been solved by this and similar papers. I still do not understand what Mermin and Weinberg are after claiming there were some physics not understood. The predictions of quantum theory are in accordance with all observations, including the strong correlations due to entanglement. Of course, it "feels" unfamiliar given our experience "trained" by living in a "classical world", but it's to be expected that we find out surprising deviations from our everyday experience, when we consider situations, we are not used to. That's true for the (in)famous relativistic kinematical effects like length contraction, time dilation, "relativity of simultaneity", etc. because we simply don't move with relative velocities close to the speed of light wrt. the Earth as well as for "quantum phenomena", because we never have contact with systems, for which decoherence destroys the correlations described by entanglement between far-distant parts of a quantum system.
 
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  • #104
vanhees71 said:
If I understood the rest of the paper right (restricting myself to the much simpler standard representation in the Methods section rather than the overcomplicated "Mermin-device narrative"),
Well, the part you skipped is what motivated the title of the paper. Mermin's challenge is the reason the rest of the paper was written.

vanhees71 said:
the issue simply is that if you have an entangled spin state and measure spin components in different directions on the two particles, you cannot verify angular-momentum conservation. That's no surprise, and I don't see, where there should be any problem with that. It's also a strange wording to say you change the reference frame just by measuring different spin components.
Brukner and Zeilinger also use this language in "Information and fundamental elements of the structure of quantum theory" where they associate a complete set of complementary spin measurements with a particular reference frame. Establishing what constitutes a reference frame is necessary to using the relativity principle aka "no preferred reference frame" (NPRF), which is the foundation of our answer to Mermin's challenge.

vanhees71 said:
Concerning angular-momentum conservation this state is due to the decay of a spin-0 particle (in its rest frame) to two spin-1/2 particles, and indeed the total angular momentum stays 0 in this case, and you can verify this conservation law by measuring both particles in the same direction, which can be arbitrarily chosen. That's a special case, because the ##S=0## states are rotational invariant and here indeed all total-spin components take simultaneously the determined value 0.

It's also clear that it makes a difference whether you have prepared the two-particle system in the (unique) spin singulett state, ##1/\sqrt{2} (|ud \rangle-|du \rangle)##, which is of course rotational invariant, because it's the ##S=0## state, or one of the three triplet states ##|S=1,M=1 \rangle=|uu \rangle##, ##|S=1,M=0 \rangle =1/\sqrt{2} (|ud \rangle + |du \rangle)##, and ##|S=1,M=1 \rangle=|dd \rangle##, because this basis is not rotationally invariant but transforms under the ##S=1## representation.
Each of the three triplet states is rotationally invariant in a particular plane, as we explain in the paper and I explained in the Insight, "Exploring Bell States and Conservation of Spin Angular Momentum." Putting that together with NPRF per the reference frames of complementary spin measurements tells us that the SU(2) invariance of eigenvalues between different spin measurement operators per Information Invariance & Continuity entails the SO(3) invariance of spin measurement outcomes between those different inertial reference frames. Then add the fact that such measurements are actually measurements of Planck's constant h (Weinberg) and we have an exact analogy with the light postulate, NPRF + c, i.e., we have NPRF + h. So, the "mysteries" of time dilation and length contraction are due to NPRF + c while the "mysterious" Bell state correlations are due to NPRF + h. That's our answer to Mermin's challenge. Very simple, right?

vanhees71 said:
Concerning conservation laws, one of these states is realized by the decay of a spin-1 particle (in its rest frame) to two spin-1/2 particles. To verify the angular-momentum conservation law you have to prepare this mother particle in a specific spin state ##M=1##, ##M=0##, or ##M=-1## for an arbitrary component of the spin (which usually is called the ##z## direction). To verify angular-momentum conservation in the decay process you now have to measure the spin components of both decay products in the same ##z## direction. In any other direction already the spin component of the mother particle has been indetermined and correspondingly the components of the total angular momentum of the decay particles in this direction is indetermined either, but indeed there are the strong correlations in spin measurements in this other direction described by the entanglement of each of the three triplet states. This doesn't imply that the conservation law were valid only on average.
For those who are interested in how one might actually prepare a Bell triplet state, see this paper: Dehlinger, D. & Mitchell, M. Entangled photons, nonlocality, and Bell inequalities in the undergraduate laboratory. American Journal of Physics 70, 903–910 (2002).

vanhees71 said:
I still miss which problem has been solved by this and similar papers. I still do not understand what Mermin and Weinberg are after claiming there were some physics not understood.
Keep in mind that you're simply making a statement of your ignorance here. These and many other highly accomplished physicists did and do discuss issues concerning the understanding of QM. Once you understand what it is that bothers them, then you can address their concerns (if you so choose) rather than simply expressing the fact that you are ignorant of them.

vanhees71 said:
The predictions of quantum theory are in accordance with all observations, including the strong correlations due to entanglement. Of course, it "feels" unfamiliar given our experience "trained" by living in a "classical world", but it's to be expected that we find out surprising deviations from our everyday experience, when we consider situations, we are not used to. That's true for the (in)famous relativistic kinematical effects like length contraction, time dilation, "relativity of simultaneity", etc. because we simply don't move with relative velocities close to the speed of light wrt. the Earth as well as for "quantum phenomena", because we never have contact with systems, for which decoherence destroys the correlations described by entanglement between far-distant parts of a quantum system.
"I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics." Feynman, Probability and Uncertainty; The Quantum Mechanical View of Nature.

"All of modern physics is governed by that magnificent and thoroughly confusing discipline called quantum mechanics. It has survived all tests and there is no reason to believe that there is any flaw in it. We all know how to use it and and how to apply it to problems; and so we have learned to live with the fact that nobody can understand it." Gell-Mann in The Unnatural Nature of Science, p. 144.

"Everybody who has learned quantum mechanics agrees how to use it. 'Shut up and calculate!' There is no ambiguity, no confusion, and spectacular success. What we lack is any consensus about what one is actually talking about as one uses quantum mechanics. There is an unprecedented gap between the abstract terms in which the theory is couched and the phenomena the theory enables us so well to account for. We do not understand the meaning of this strange conceptual apparatus that each of us uses so effectively to deal with our world. ... What the hell are we talking about when we use quantum mechanics? For practical purposes ordinary everyday quantum mechanics is just fine, and what I have to say is of little or no interest. It is my hope to interest those who, like me, are impractical enough always to have been bothered, at least a bit, by not knowing what they are talking about." Mermin, Making Better Sense of Quantum Mechanics. 2019 Rep. Prog. Phys. 82 012002

You may just have to accept the fact that you will never understand what bothered Einstein, Weinberg, Mermin, Gell-Mann, Feynman, and many others about QM. You simply cannot relate, so you have nothing to contribute to such discussions. I wish I could help you!
 
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  • #105
RUTA said:
Well, the part you skipped is what motivated the title of the paper. Mermin's challenge is the reason the rest of the paper was written.Brukner and Zeilinger also use this language in "Information and fundamental elements of the structure of quantum theory" where they associate a complete set of complementary spin measurements with a particular reference frame. Establishing what constitutes a reference frame is necessary to using the relativity principle aka "no preferred reference frame" (NPRF), which is the foundation of our answer to Mermin's challenge.
Well, they use way more conventional language. At least Zeilinger seems to be a Bohrian Copenhagian and thus much more inclined to the orthodox interpretation than using some unusual language.
RUTA said:
Each of the three triplet states is rotationally invariant in a particular plane, as we explain in the paper and I explained in the Insight, "Exploring Bell States and Conservation of Spin Angular Momentum." Putting that together with NPRF per the reference frames of complementary spin measurements tells us that the SU(2) invariance of eigenvalues between different spin measurement operators per Information Invariance & Continuity entails the SO(3) invariance of spin measurement outcomes between those different inertial reference frames. Then add the fact that such measurements are actually measurements of Planck's constant h (Weinberg) and we have an exact analogy with the light postulate, NPRF + c, i.e., we have NPRF + h. So, the "mysteries" of time dilation and length contraction are due to NPRF + c while the "mysterious" Bell state correlations are due to NPRF + h. That's our answer to Mermin's challenge. Very simple, right?
Of course the states are invariant under rotation around the "quantization axis". This is also no mystery but follows from the representation theory of the rotation group or rather its covering group SU(2).
RUTA said:
For those who are interested in how one might actually prepare a Bell triplet state, see this paper: Dehlinger, D. & Mitchell, M. Entangled photons, nonlocality, and Bell inequalities in the undergraduate laboratory. American Journal of Physics 70, 903–910 (2002).Keep in mind that you're simply making a statement of your ignorance here. These and many other highly accomplished physicists did and do discuss issues concerning the understanding of QM. Once you understand what it is that bothers them, then you can address their concerns (if you so choose) rather than simply expressing the fact that you are ignorant of them.
Indeed, I don't understand, where the problem is. That's why I'm asking!
RUTA said:
"I think I can safely say that nobody understands quantum mechanics." Feynman, Probability and Uncertainty; The Quantum Mechanical View of Nature.

"All of modern physics is governed by that magnificent and thoroughly confusing discipline called quantum mechanics. It has survived all tests and there is no reason to believe that there is any flaw in it. We all know how to use it and and how to apply it to problems; and so we have learned to live with the fact that nobody can understand it." Gell-Mann in The Unnatural Nature of Science, p. 144.
Again, I don't understand what Gell-Mann thinks is not understood. Of course all these celebreties of science you quote have very well understood quantum mechanics (including Einstein, who was an opponent against it). So what are Feynman and Gell-Mann find incomplete in our understanding given that QT is the most comprehensive and so far never empirically falsified theory about nature we have? The only thing not understood is a satisfactory quantum description of gravitation, but that's obviously not what they are after in these statements.
RUTA said:
"Everybody who has learned quantum mechanics agrees how to use it. 'Shut up and calculate!' There is no ambiguity, no confusion, and spectacular success. What we lack is any consensus about what one is actually talking about as one uses quantum mechanics. There is an unprecedented gap between the abstract terms in which the theory is couched and the phenomena the theory enables us so well to account for. We do not understand the meaning of this strange conceptual apparatus that each of us uses so effectively to deal with our world. ... What the hell are we talking about when we use quantum mechanics? For practical purposes ordinary everyday quantum mechanics is just fine, and what I have to say is of little or no interest. It is my hope to interest those who, like me, are impractical enough always to have been bothered, at least a bit, by not knowing what they are talking about." Mermin, Making Better Sense of Quantum Mechanics. 2019 Rep. Prog. Phys. 82 012002
What meaning? It's well known what we are talking about, i.e., devices to set up and observe "quantum systems" of various kinds. QT precisely predicts the outcomes of these measurements, and there are no cases, where the predictions of QT turned out to be wrong.
RUTA said:
You may just have to accept the fact that you will never understand what bothered Einstein, Weinberg, Mermin, Gell-Mann, Feynman, and many others about QM. You simply cannot relate, so you have nothing to contribute to such discussions. I wish I could help you!
:-(
 
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  • #106
RUTA is insisting that the nobody understands quantum mechanics. Esp how it relates to the 'classical' world.
Vanhees71 is insisting that QT is fine and everybody understands quantum theory as it's almost a complete theory that makes the best predictions in the history of physics. Vanhees71 is saying that nobody understands reality and it's not even a duty of science to make reality comprehensible.
RUTA, you understand that Vanhees71 does not claim to understand how reality is, why it is the way it is? Right?
Because it seems you imply Vanhees71 is saying things he never intended to say. He flat out rejects discussion about philosophy. Not even once has he implied that he knows how and what reality is. Not even once.
Your philosophical musings seem to irk him because you seem to insist on having a Newtonian Universe which does not even exist. And it seems it never existed at all. He grapples with the same issues but from a wholly different perspective. I guess everybody wonders about entanglement... but here I wi side with Vanhees71. I worry about it all but from the POV of all reality. Entanglement is almost a minor issue given the failure of realism at the quantum scales.
 
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  • #107
CoolMint said:
RUTA is insisting that the nobody understands quantum mechanics. Esp how it relates to the 'classical' world.
Vanhees71 is insisting that QT is fine and everybody understands quantum theory as it's almost a complete theory that makes the best predictions in the history of physics. Vanhees71 is saying that nobody understands reality and it's not even a duty of science to make reality comprehensible.
RUTA, you understand that Vanhees71 does not claim to understand how reality is, why it is the way it is? Right?
Because it seems you imply Vanhees71 is saying things he never intended to say. He flat out rejects discussion about philosophy. Not even once has he implied that he knows how and what reality is. Not even once.
Your philosophical musings seem to irk him because you seem to insist on having a Newtonian Universe which does not even exist. And it seems it never existed at all. He grapples with the same issues but from a wholly different perspective. I guess everybody wonders about entanglement... but here I wi side with Vanhees71. I worry about it all but from the POV of all reality. Entanglement is almost a minor issue given the failure of realism at the quantum scales.
If you reject philosophical discussion, this forum "Quantum Interpretations and Foundations" is not the place to be. It's all about philosophical perspectives on QM.

I never said I advocated a Newtonian Universe. Not even close. I advocate the relativity principle at the foundation of QM, just as it exists at the foundation of SR. Neither of those theories is Newtonian.
 
  • #108
CoolMint said:
Your philosophical musings seem to irk him because you seem to insist on having a Newtonian Universe which does not even exist. And it seems it never existed at all. He grapples with the same issues but from a wholly different perspective. I guess everybody wonders about entanglement... but here I wi side with Vanhees71. I worry about it all but from the POV of all reality. Entanglement is almost a minor issue given the failure of realism at the quantum scales.
What irks me is when for some irrational "philosophical" reasons elementary observable facts, which don't need any vaguely defined interpretational notions, are denied. The claim that the conservation laws are "valid only on average" has been refuted by Bothe et al already about 100 years ago!

Otherwise it's clear that entanglement and particularly its experimental realization is intriguing, but it only seems "weird", because we are not used to quantum phenomena in everyday life. For me, scientific theories are descriptions of what can be objectively and quantitatively observed, and QT is very successful with that, including the correlations due to entanglement, and that's thus very well understood.
 
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  • #109
RUTA said:
And why this particular generalized probability theory? There are others besides QM.

That could be a fruitful line of research. If I was interested in research work (far too old now other than things that interest me from time to time) it could be something I could really get into.

Thanks
Bill
 
  • #110
Fra said:
So let me rephrase the question of "why these laws" into "why do we abduce these laws and not others".

When Feynman said, we guess them, everyone in the audience laughed. He then became stern and serious, saying that is how it is done. As to the why of certain guesses, I leave that to psychiatrists and psychologists, both legitimate scientific research areas. Symmetry is the one that enthrals me.

Thanks
Bill
 
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  • #111
vanhees71 said:
What irks me is when for some irrational "philosophical" reasons elementary observable facts, which don't need any vaguely defined interpretational notions, are denied. The claim that the conservation laws are "valid only on average" has been refuted by Bothe et al already about 100 years ago!

Otherwise it's clear that entanglement and particularly its experimental realization is intriguing, but it only seems "weird", because we are not used to quantum phenomena in everyday life. For me, scientific theories are descriptions of what can be objectively and quantitatively observed, and QT is very successful with that, including the correlations due to entanglement, and that's thus very well understood.
Let me try again, since this is directly relevant to the OP. "Average-only" conservation, which is a mathematical fact about Bell states, seems to be confusing vanhees71, so I'll go straight to the source of that fact, i.e., "average-only" projection aka Information Invariance & Continuity aka superposition aka spin aka the qubit aka ... . What I'm presenting next will probably not make any sense to those who haven't taken QM. That's good, it will make my point all the better. For those readers, just read the words and gloss right over the mathematics. No worries, I'll follow the Hilbert space formalism with a conceptual explanation that you can (probably) understand. That's the point of this exercise.

Suppose I make a measurement on a spin up state along the z axis. We might do that physically by sending a beam of silver atoms through a pair of Stern-Gerlach (SG) magnets aligned along what we call the z axis. Then we direct the atoms that are deflected upwards out of those SG magnets through another pair of SG magnets oriented at ##\hat{b}## making a an angle ##\theta## with respect to ##\hat{z}## (figure below). How does QM describe the outcomes of that measurement at ##\hat{b}##?

Figure1.png


The state being measured is ##|\psi\rangle = |z+\rangle## and there are two possible outcomes of our measurement that I will call +1 (deflected towards red pole of SG magnets) denoted by ##|+\rangle## and -1 (deflected towards green pole of SG magnets) denoted by ##|-\rangle##. The Hilbert space formalism says the probability of getting the +1 outcome is ##|\langle+|\psi\rangle|^2 = \cos^2{\left(\frac{\theta}{2}\right)}## and the probability of getting the -1 outcome is ##|\langle-|\psi\rangle|^2 = \sin^2{\left(\frac{\theta}{2}\right)}## (Born rule). These are just the squares of the projection of ##|\psi\rangle = |z+\rangle## onto the two eigenvectors of our measurement operator ##\sigma## given by ##\sigma = \hat{b}\cdot\vec{\sigma}=b_x\sigma_x + b_y\sigma_y + b_z\sigma_z## where ##\sigma_x##, ##\sigma_y##, ##\sigma_z## are the Pauli matrices. The average is then given by the expectation value of ##\sigma## for ##|\psi\rangle##, i.e.,
##\langle\sigma\rangle := \langle \psi| \sigma|\psi \rangle = \cos{(\theta)}##​
All of that is standard textbook QM. For physicists like vanhees71 this constitutes "understanding":
For me, scientific theories are descriptions of what can be objectively and quantitatively observed, and QT is very successful with that, including the correlations due to entanglement, and that's thus very well understood.
However, if you who are not familiar with standard textbook QM, this quote by Chris Fuchs might resonant with you:
Associated with each system [in quantum mechanics] is a complex vector space. Vectors, tensor products, all of these things. Compare that to one of our other great physical theories, special relativity. One could make the statement of it in terms of some very crisp and clear physical principles: The speed of light is constant in all inertial frames, and the laws of physics are the same in all inertial frames. And it struck me that if we couldn’t take the structure of quantum theory and change it from this very overt mathematical speak—something that didn’t look to have much physical content at all, in a way that anyone could identify with some kind of physical principle—if we couldn’t turn that into something like this, then the debate would go on forever and ever. And it seemed like a worthwhile exercise to try to reduce the mathematical structure of quantum mechanics to some crisp physical statements.
That's what Gell-Mann, Feynman, and Mermin were talking about in their quotes I posted earlier. All of these people are very familiar with the textbook QM formalism, so what they mean by "understanding QM" goes beyond the mere formalism.

In response to this challenge by Fuchs, Hardy (and subsequently many others) are trying to "reconstruct" QM using principles rather than the pure math a la above. They chose principles from information theory while treating QM as a "general" probability theory. Luckily, we don't have to understand their reconstructions in detail, all we need is one part of what they discovered and we can understand that conceptually.

What they found originated with the first such "axiomatic reconstruction of QM based on information-theoretic principles" published by Hardy in 2001, Quantum Theory from Five Reasonable Axioms. What Hardy discovered was that by deleting one word ("continuous") from his fifth axiom, he would have classical probability theory instead of quantum probability theory. Thus, this quote from Koberinski and Mueller in an earlier post:
We suggest that (continuous) reversibility may be the postulate which comes closest to being a candidate for a glimpse on the genuinely physical kernel of ``quantum reality''. Even though Fuchs may want to set a higher threshold for a ``glimpse of quantum reality'', this postulate is quite surprising from the point of view of classical physics: when we have a discrete system that can be in a finite number of perfectly distinguishable alternatives, then one would classically expect that reversible evolution must be discrete too. For example, a single bit can only ever be flipped, which is a discrete indivisible operation. Not so in quantum theory: the state |0> of a qubit can be continuously-reversibly ``moved over'' to the state |1>. For people without knowledge of quantum theory (but of classical information theory), this may appear as surprising or ``paradoxical'' as Einstein's light postulate sounds to people without knowledge of relativity.
Now let me use what they discovered about "continuity", plus the relativity principle, to provide what Fuchs and others see as missing in the math above concerning spin measurements. Of course, there is more to QM, but I'm focusing here on the OP and vanhees71's confusion.

The classical probability theory we're comparing to quantum probability theory has to do with the "classical bit," which can be instantiated many ways physically, but for simplicity let's just look at two boxes and one ball. I have two measurement options, I can open box 1 or I can open box 2. I have two possible outcomes for each measurement, +1 meaning it contains a ball or -1 meaning it doesn't contain a ball. [Sometimes people use +1 and 0, as in the K-M quote, thinking of 1's and 0's for a computer, for example. I'll stick to +1 and -1 here for reasons that will be clear later.] Since the ball is in one of the two boxes, the probability that it is in box 1 plus the probability that it is in box 2 must equal 100%, i.e., ##p_1 + p_2 = 1##. So, we can represent the probability space as a line connecting the fact that the ball is in box 2 (##p_2 = 1##) and the fact that the ball is in box 1 (##p_1 = 1##) (figure below).
ClassicalBit.jpg

The key feature of this probability pointed out by Hardy (and employed in many reconstructions since) is that there are only two actual measurements represented in the probability space for the classical bit depicted here, i.e., those along each axis. The points along the line connecting those two "pure states" are "mixtures", they don't actually represent a measurement because you can't open a box "between" boxes 1 and 2.

In contrast, the quantum version of a bit ("qubit") allows for pure states to be connected in continuous fashion by other pure states. Here is Brukner and Zeilinger's picture of the qubit for our QM formalism above:

BlochSphere.jpg

As you can see, we are allowed to rotate our SG magnets for our ##\sigma## measurement of ##|\psi\rangle## and we have a measurement at every ##\theta## in continuous fashion, always obtaining one of two outcomes, +1 or -1. To relate this to typical QM terminology, this is superposition per the qubit representing spin. To relate this to the information-theoretic terminology, this is Information Invariance & Continuity per Brukner and Zeilinger:

The total information of one bit is invariant under a continuous change between different complete sets of mutually complementary measurements.

where the "mutually complementary spin measurements" here are the orthogonal set for each ##\theta## as shown in this figure

ComplementaryBases.png
Now let's finish this conceptual understanding of Information Invariance & Continuity aka spin aka the qubit by looking at what makes the difference between the qubit and classical bit "weird." I'll characterize that "weird" empirical fact by "average-only" projection, justify it by the relativity principle, and we're done!

If we were to try to understand what is going on with our spin example above, we might suppose that the silver atoms are tiny magnetic dipoles being deflected by the SG magnetic field. If that is the case, we expect the amount of deflection to vary depending on how the atoms are oriented relative to the SG magnet field as they enter it. Here is a figure from Knight's intro physics text for that "classical" picture:

SternGerlach.JPG

The problem with this picture is of course that we only ever get two deflections, i.e., up or down, relative to the SG magnets. Even when we chose a specific case ##|\psi\rangle = |z+\rangle## and measured at ##\hat{b}## we still always got +1 or -1, no fractions (again, look at qubit picture). What we expected per our classical model would be a fractional deflection along ##\hat{b}## like this:

Projection.png


But, guess what that projection equals ... ##\cos{\theta}## ... exactly what QM gives as the average of the +1 and -1 outcomes overall, ##\langle \sigma \rangle##. And, if you start with this expectation for ##\sigma##, you can derive the ##\cos^2{\left(\frac{\theta}{2}\right)}## and ##\sin^2{\left(\frac{\theta}{2}\right)}## probabilities by requiring additionally that the probabilities add to 1 (called "normalization"). Notice that since we can only ever get +1 or -1, no fractions, we cannot ever measure ##\cos{\theta}## directly. That is to say, the projected value can only obtain on average. This means the standard textbook formalism of QM for the spin qubit can be characterized as "average-only" projection. Thus, the probabilities of our Hilbert space mathematics can be understood to follow from "average-only" projection, which is an empirical fact.

Again, we haven't introduced any interpretations or opinions or proposals here. We're simply characterizing the QM formalism conceptually. And, "average-only" conservation is exactly the same, we just replace the counterfactual ##\hat{b} = \hat{z}## measurement outcome for Bob's single qubit experiment here with the counterfactual ##\hat{b} = \hat{a}## measurement outcome (required for conservation of spin angular momentum) for Bob when Alice measures at ##\hat{a}##. In other words, "average-only" conservation for Bell state qubits results from "average-only" projection for single qubits. This is not an interpretation.

To conclude, as Weinberg pointed out, we are measuring Planck's constant h when we do our spin measurement. And, we are in different reference frames related by spatial rotations as we vary ##\theta## (per Brukner and Zeilinger). So, Information Invariance & Continuity entails everyone will measure the same value for h (##\pm##) regardless of their reference frame orientation relative to the source ("Planck postulate" -- an empirical fact equivalent to the light postulate of SR: everyone will measure the same value for c regardless of their reference frame motion relative to the source). Both are simply statements of empirical facts. Thus, everything presented to this point constitutes a collection of empirical and mathematical facts per standard textbook QM.

Finally, we give a principle account of the mathematical facts following from the empirical fact a la Einstein for SR. That is, we justify the "Planck postulate" by the relativity principle. Just as time dilation and length contraction follow mathematically from the light postulate which is justified by the relativity principle, the qubit probabilities (whence "average-only" conservation) follow mathematically from the Planck postulate which is justified by the relativity principle. This last step is indeed a proposal, but it's as solid as what Einstein did for SR :-)
 
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  • #112
bhobba said:
When Feynman said, we guess them, everyone in the audience laughed. He then became stern and serious, saying that is how it is done. As to the why of certain guesses, I leave that to psychiatrists and psychologists, both legitimate scientific research areas. Symmetry is the one that enthrals me.

Thanks
Bill
I'd also say, that is as if you asked, how was a genius like Beethoven getting his ideas to compose his symphonies. As works of art, to discover physical theories to describe observed phenomena (as well as the invention of clever experiments to make the corresponding observations) is a creative act. You cannot explain, how Feynman came to his idea of the "space-time picture" of quantum mechanics (PhD thesis) and QED (Nobel prize).
 
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  • #113
RUTA said:
Let me try again, since this is directly relevant to the OP. "Average-only" conservation, which is a mathematical fact about Bell states, seems to be confusing vanhees71, so I'll go straight to the source of that fact, i.e., "average-only" projection aka Information Invariance & Continuity aka superposition aka spin aka the qubit aka ... .
The statistics of measurements on Bell states consist of operations with single quantum systems (e.g., two entangled photons) event-by-event, and the conservation laws hold event by event. E.g., if you have a polarization-singlet two-photon state and you measure, e.g., the linear polarization of the two photons in the same direction you must always get opposite results, because the total angular momentum of the two-photon states is 0. Of course, to verify this, you must repeat the same experiment very often to gain sufficient statistics to meet your goal of statistical significance. That doesn't imply that the conservation laws hold only on average.
RUTA said:
What I'm presenting next will probably not make any sense to those who haven't taken QM. That's good, it will make my point all the better. For those readers, just read the words and gloss right over the mathematics. No worries, I'll follow the Hilbert space formalism with a conceptual explanation that you can (probably) understand. That's the point of this exercise.

Suppose I make a measurement on a spin up state along the z axis. We might do that physically by sending a beam of silver atoms through a pair of Stern-Gerlach (SG) magnets aligned along what we call the z axis. Then we direct the atoms that are deflected upwards out of those SG magnets through another pair of SG magnets oriented at ##\hat{b}## making a an angle ##\theta## with respect to ##\hat{z}## (figure below). How does QM describe the outcomes of that measurement at ##\hat{b}##?

View attachment 305358

The state being measured is ##|\psi\rangle = |z+\rangle## and there are two possible outcomes of our measurement that I will call +1 (deflected towards red pole of SG magnets) denoted by ##|+\rangle## and -1 (deflected towards green pole of SG magnets) denoted by ##|-\rangle##. The Hilbert space formalism says the probability of getting the +1 outcome is ##|\langle+|\psi\rangle|^2 = \cos^2{\left(\frac{\theta}{2}\right)}## and the probability of getting the -1 outcome is ##|\langle-|\psi\rangle|^2 = \sin^2{\left(\frac{\theta}{2}\right)}## (Born rule). These are just the squares of the projection of ##|\psi\rangle = |z+\rangle## onto the two eigenvectors of our measurement operator ##\sigma## given by ##\sigma = \hat{b}\cdot\vec{\sigma}=b_x\sigma_x + b_y\sigma_y + b_z\sigma_z## where ##\sigma_x##, ##\sigma_y##, ##\sigma_z## are the Pauli matrices. The average is then given by the expectation value of ##\sigma## for ##|\psi\rangle##, i.e.,
##\langle\sigma\rangle := \langle \psi| \sigma|\psi \rangle = \cos{(\theta)}##​
All of that is standard textbook QM. For physicists like vanhees71 this constitutes "understanding":
Indeed. What else do you need? That's all what has been ever observed in Stern-Gerlach experiments (including those much more accurate ones like using a Penning trap to measure the electron Lande g-factor to 12 (or more?) digits of accuracy.
RUTA said:
However, if you who are not familiar with standard textbook QM, this quote by Chris Fuchs might resonant with you:

That's what Gell-Mann, Feynman, and Mermin were talking about in their quotes I posted earlier. All of these people are very familiar with the textbook QM formalism, so what they mean by "understanding QM" goes beyond the mere formalism.
What goes beyond the "mere formalism" and its application to real-world experiment is not subject to the objective natural sciences. An indication for that is that it seems impossible to clearly state, what "the problem" is.
RUTA said:
In response to this challenge by Fuchs, Hardy (and subsequently many others) are trying to "reconstruct" QM using principles rather than the pure math a la above. They chose principles from information theory while treating QM as a "general" probability theory. Luckily, we don't have to understand their reconstructions in detail, all we need is one part of what they discovered and we can understand that conceptually.
Of course, an information theoretical approach to any kind of probabilistic description is an important aspect to understand the physics it describes. The claim that we "don't have to understand the reconstructions in detail" is another indication that here we leave the realm of exact science.
RUTA said:
What they found originated with the first such "axiomatic reconstruction of QM based on information-theoretic principles" published by Hardy in 2001, Quantum Theory from Five Reasonable Axioms. What Hardy discovered was that by deleting one word ("continuous") from his fifth axiom, he would have classical probability theory instead of quantum probability theory. Thus, this quote from Koberinski and Mueller in an earlier post:

Now let me use what they discovered about "continuity", plus the relativity principle, to provide what Fuchs and others see as missing in the math above concerning spin measurements. Of course, there is more to QM, but I'm focusing here on the OP and vanhees71's confusion.

The classical probability theory we're comparing to quantum probability theory has to do with the "classical bit," which can be instantiated many ways physically, but for simplicity let's just look at two boxes and one ball. I have two measurement options, I can open box 1 or I can open box 2. I have two possible outcomes for each measurement, +1 meaning it contains a ball or -1 meaning it doesn't contain a ball. [Sometimes people use +1 and 0, as in the K-M quote, thinking of 1's and 0's for a computer, for example. I'll stick to +1 and -1 here for reasons that will be clear later.] Since the ball is in one of the two boxes, the probability that it is in box 1 plus the probability that it is in box 2 must equal 100%, i.e., ##p_1 + p_2 = 1##. So, we can represent the probability space as a line connecting the fact that the ball is in box 2 (##p_2 = 1##) and the fact that the ball is in box 1 (##p_1 = 1##) (figure below).
View attachment 305366
The key feature of this probability pointed out by Hardy (and employed in many reconstructions since) is that there are only two actual measurements represented in the probability space for the classical bit depicted here, i.e., those along each axis. The points along the line connecting those two "pure states" are "mixtures", they don't actually represent a measurement because you can't open a box "between" boxes 1 and 2.
This I don't understand. It depends on the preparation of the system before measurement, which probabilities, ##p_1## and ##p_2=1-p_1## you'll find when repeating the experiment often enough to measure these probabilities at a given level of statistical significance. That's true for both "classical" and "quantum" probabilities.
RUTA said:
In contrast, the quantum version of a bit ("qubit") allows for pure states to be connected in continuous fashion by other pure states. Here is Brukner and Zeilinger's picture of the qubit for our QM formalism above:

View attachment 305367
As you can see, we are allowed to rotate our SG magnets for our ##\sigma## measurement of ##|\psi\rangle## and we have a measurement at every ##\theta## in continuous fashion, always obtaining one of two outcomes, +1 or -1. To relate this to typical QM terminology, this is superposition per the qubit representing spin. To relate this to the information-theoretic terminology, this is Information Invariance & Continuity per Brukner and Zeilinger:
where the "mutually complementary spin measurements" here are the orthogonal set for each ##\theta## as shown in this figure

View attachment 305369Now let's finish this conceptual understanding of Information Invariance & Continuity aka spin aka the qubit by looking at what makes the difference between the qubit and classical bit "weird." I'll characterize that "weird" empirical fact by "average-only" projection, justify it by the relativity principle, and we're done!
What do you mean by "average-only projection"? If you measure the spin component in any arbitrary direction (by the way completely determined with two angles ##(\vartheta,\varphi)## indicating the unit vector determining that direction) precisely, you always find either a value ##\hbar/2## or ##-\hbar/2## in each event, independent of the (pure or mixed) state you prepared the particle's spin in. The probabilities are given by the statistical operator describing this state prepared before measurement.
RUTA said:
If we were to try to understand what is going on with our spin example above, we might suppose that the silver atoms are tiny magnetic dipoles being deflected by the SG magnetic field. If that is the case, we expect the amount of deflection to vary depending on how the atoms are oriented relative to the SG magnet field as they enter it. Here is a figure from Knight's intro physics text for that "classical" picture:

View attachment 305370
The problem with this picture is of course that we only ever get two deflections, i.e., up or down, relative to the SG magnets. Even when we chose a specific case ##|\psi\rangle = |z+\rangle## and measured at ##\hat{b}## we still always got +1 or -1, no fractions (again, look at qubit picture). What we expected per our classical model would be a fractional deflection along ##\hat{b}## like this:

View attachment 305371

But, guess what that projection equals ... ##\cos{\theta}## ... exactly what QM gives as the average of the +1 and -1 outcomes overall, ##\langle \sigma \rangle##. And, if you start with this expectation for ##\sigma##, you can derive the ##\cos^2{\left(\frac{\theta}{2}\right)}## and ##\sin^2{\left(\frac{\theta}{2}\right)}## probabilities by requiring additionally that the probabilities add to 1 (called "normalization"). Notice that since we can only ever get +1 or -1, no fractions, we cannot ever measure ##\cos{\theta}## directly. That is to say, the projected value can only obtain on average. This means the standard textbook formalism of QM for the spin qubit can be characterized as "average-only" projection. Thus, the probabilities of our Hilbert space mathematics can be understood to follow from "average-only" projection, which is an empirical fact.
Of course, quantum theory provides different (probabilistic predictions than a classical model of the electron. It was Stern's very motivation to do this experiment. It was not even clear, what the prediction of the ("old" quantum theory!) was: Should one get two or three discrete lines (Bohr vs. Sommerfeld) or a continuum (classical physics).
RUTA said:
Again, we haven't introduced any interpretations or opinions or proposals here. We're simply characterizing the QM formalism conceptually. And, "average-only" conservation is exactly the same, we just replace the counterfactual ##\hat{b} = \hat{z}## measurement outcome for Bob's single qubit experiment here with the counterfactual ##\hat{b} = \hat{a}## measurement outcome (required for conservation of spin angular momentum) for Bob when Alice measures at ##\hat{a}##. In other words, "average-only" conservation for Bell state qubits results from "average-only" projection for single qubits. This is not an interpretation.
But you can check the conservation laws only for one component, because determining one component of the spin implies that any other component is indetermined, because components in different direction are incompatible observables. Also you can measure only one spin direction, i.e., you can only choose one direction by the magnetic field. You never measure two components of the spin in different directions on a single particle. This you can achieve only on an ensemble. If you test the conservation law for angular momentum you can do that event-by-event only when measuring the spins of the two particles in a single direction. Any other measurement gives random results with probabilities given by Born's rule, given the (pure or mixed) state the particles' spin is prepared in before measurement.
RUTA said:
To conclude, as Weinberg pointed out, we are measuring Planck's constant h when we do our spin measurement. And, we are in different reference frames related by spatial rotations as we vary ##\theta## (per Brukner and Zeilinger). So, Information Invariance & Continuity entails everyone will measure the same value for h (##\pm##) regardless of their reference frame orientation relative to the source ("Planck postulate" -- an empirical fact equivalent to the light postulate of SR: everyone will measure the same value for c regardless of their reference frame motion relative to the source). Both are simply statements of empirical facts. Thus, everything presented to this point constitutes a collection of empirical and mathematical facts per standard textbook QM.
You are not in different reference frames. For that you'd have to use moving Stern-Gerlach magnets. Due to Galilei invariance the outcome of the measurements do not depend on the choice of the reference frame (defined, e.g., by the restframe of the magnets). The description of the same experiment in one frame is just a unitary transformation (given by the usual ray representation of the Gailei group for a particle with the given mass and spin). The same, of course, holds for Poincare invariance in the relativistic case (where however you have to be careful with the definition of "spin"; here you can only measure the total angular momentum of the electron, not the spin since the split into spin and orbital angular momentum is frame dependent).
RUTA said:
Finally, we give a principle account of the mathematical facts following from the empirical fact a la Einstein for SR. That is, we justify the "Planck postulate" by the relativity principle. Just as time dilation and length contraction follow mathematically from the light postulate which is justified by the relativity principle, the qubit probabilities (whence "average-only" conservation) follow mathematically from the Planck postulate which is justified by the relativity principle. This last step is indeed a proposal, but it's as solid as what Einstein did for SR :-)
That there's one and only one frame-independent value for Planck's constant, ##\hbar=h/(2 \pi)##, is implemented in the realization of either non-relativistic or relativistic QT. That has nothing to do with "average-only conservation", which claim contradicts all observations made so far.
 
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  • #114
I am guessing Karl Popper would be proud of you both 🙂 I do understand but doesn't share the stance as optimal.
bhobba said:
When Feynman said, we guess them, everyone in the audience laughed. He then became stern and serious, saying that is how it is done.
About laughing, the exact same thing happened to smolin as he held a talk SETI about the evolution of law and the principle of prescedence.



/Fredrik
 
  • #115
vanhees71 said:
I'd also say, that is as if you asked, how was a genius like Beethoven getting his ideas to compose his symphonies.
My comment on this comment is that I see it similar to those who in misinterpreted "observers knowledge" as something having to do with human brain or consciusness.

At human level, of course Feyman is right. And its not the job of physicists to model human intelligence. It is definitely not what anyone means.

But do we have to stop there, or are rhere further insights to get? This is where we disagree.

1) Observers knowledge is encoded in the physical observer side of the cut. Making it a relation or contextual. This has nothing todo with brains. I guess we agree here?

But in QM the observerside is always dominant and classical. We know how to explain interactions between classical objects but the background independent description of nonclassical systema is missing.

Is this satisfactory? Some of us say yes, but I say no.

/Fredrik
 
  • #116
I don't understand why this is a question of interpretation. We have mathematics to describe the mechanism and why it happens: the state of two entangled particles is one state. A particle's quanta are described by information that is simultaneously also information of the other particle. The mechanism creating entanglement is simply whenever the observed rules of quantum physics dictate that their states depend on the same events (history of quanta), is that right or not? If not, let me know - otherwise I fail to see the relevance of interpretations.
 
  • #117
Maarten Havinga said:
I fail to see the relevance of interpretations.
1) If one takes the view that we have an effective theory that is corroborated for certain domains, there isn't much to say about this. It is great and useful no matter how you interpret it. For some this is enough and we do not ask for more.

2) But some of us are obsessed with cravings for a unified theory or coherent understanding. We have now set of various theories whose parameters are on empirically determined, and they have also different constructing principles that are not obviously compatible while it seems reasonable to think that they will have some relation at different energy scales or observational scales, there is an urge for finding a coherent framework which is consistent when it comes to constructing principles. In this context, interpolating or extending theories naturally is interpretatation dependent.

3) Some other may also seek an pure interpretation without ambition to extend or reconstruct anything, for reasons such as casting a given theory to personal preferences.

I belong to the second group. An image is forming where other members here fall into other categories.

/Fredrik
 
  • #118
Fra said:
I belong to the second group
Me too. Only about how entanglement is created I thought it is quite much known, or am I wrong there?
 
  • #119
While I dislike the tone of "shut up and calculate", it is good to understand the mathematics well before arguing in interpretations or other less exact wordy definitions. For instance the poincare group being generated by the Lorentz transformations and translations is proof enough that special relativity gives no contradictions.

I don't know for sure if it applies here, but I thought it does.
 
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  • #120
Fra said:
But some of us are obsessed with cravings for a unified theory or coherent understanding.
What's the obsession? The delusion of objectivity?
 
  • #121
Fra said:
My comment on this comment is that I see it similar to those who in misinterpreted "observers knowledge" as something having to do with human brain or consciusness.

At human level, of course Feyman is right. And its not the job of physicists to model human intelligence. It is definitely not what anyone means.

But do we have to stop there, or are rhere further insights to get? This is where we disagree.
Of course not, but you should be aware that then you leave the solid ground of the natural sciences.
Fra said:
1) Observers knowledge is encoded in the physical observer side of the cut. Making it a relation or contextual. This has nothing todo with brains. I guess we agree here?
Of course not. QM in its minimal interpretation describes what's objectively observed. It has nothing to do with the workings of the human brain.
Fra said:
But in QM the observerside is always dominant and classical. We know how to explain interactions between classical objects but the background independent description of nonclassical systema is missing.
It's not clear what you mean by "classical". Classical physics is an approximation of QT valid for coarse-grained descriptions of "macroscopic observables" with a limited range of applicability. It is a good approximation if the averages over many microscopic observables that constitute the macroscopic observables and their changes are large compared to the quantum (or thermal) fluctuations of these quantities.
Fra said:
Is this satisfactory? Some of us say yes, but I say no.

/Fredrik
What do you mean by "background independent description"? QT describes all there is to be described, as far as we know today.
 
  • #122
RUTA said:
"Average-only" conservation, which is a mathematical fact about Bell states
More precisely, it's a "mathematical fact" if you ignore the interaction between the measured systems and the measuring devices. Once you include that interaction, it's obvious that conserved quantities--energy, momentum, angular momentum--can be exchanged between the measured systems and the measuring devices, so there is no reason to expect exact conservation of those quantities if you only look at the measured systems. In other words, the measured systems, by themselves, do not constitute an isolated, closed system, so you should not expect them to exactly obey conservation laws. This does not mean conservation laws only hold "on average" for quantum systems; it just means that, as always, conservation laws only hold for isolated, closed systems that don't interact with anything else.
 
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  • #123
vanhees71 said:
Of course not, but you should be aware that then you leave the solid ground of the natural sciences.
I see myself in the domain of "hypothesis generation", which is the fuzzy but nevertheless a part of the scientific process, but it is not a coincidence that it's the part of the scientific process that some people (like Popper) wanted to play down.
vanhees71 said:
What do you mean by "background independent description"? QT describes all there is to be described, as far as we know today.
QT rests on backgrounds in several ways ways, first in the way that is emphasised by Bohr and manifested by the Heisenberg cut. This is part of the "classical world" making up the observer, including it's encoding capacity (storing pointer variables etc) and processing power.

The other way is the one meant in GR/QG, that QFT is constructed relative to a classical spacetime. It corresponds at best to the equivalence class of the SR-observers, sitting at an asymptotic distance from the interactions they describe. This makes up for a weird relation between QFT and gravity that isn't easily dismissed. Even without a lot of engineering problems, it's a severe issue for anyone that focuses on the coherence of the explanations. It is not even clear that "gravity" should be "quantized" as per the same procedure as other fields.

So how we can use QM inference model (that presumes classical reality and classical spacetime to be defined), to infer what it assumes? What QM explains, is rather bits and pieces in the classical world, such as stability of atoms etc.

/Fredrik
 
  • #124
There is no cut between a classical and a quantum world within QT, and there's no empirical evidence for one to exist in nature. This is, however, under investigation, i.e., there are experiments going on testing the (im)possibility to demonstrate "quantum behavior" of ever larger objects.
 
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  • #125
Lord Jestocost said:
What's the obsession? The delusion of objectivity?
Can't speak for others that confess to cat 2 think, but I have no desire whatsoever to restore objectivity if that is what you mean. For me objectivity is effectively emergent among interacting systems and not fundamental, and I am fine with this.

To describe my obsession is in detail will be off topic and off limits, but I analyse the structure of physical interactions from the view of intrinsic inference (from a hypothetical inside general observer) rather than human inferences which are closely tied to the classical macroscopic world and classical apparatous. The reason for this is that I have come to my own opinion that this the core of many other open problems. Solve this, and lots of other things will be solved too. In the end of all this, there is the step of falsficiation or corroboratation. But all me "interpretations". But it's what "drives" the interpretational discussions from my side.

Without this, I would probably also prefer some sort of minimal interpretation, but the minimal interpretation gives me no sense of "direction" for modification.

/Fredrik
 
  • #126
vanhees71 said:
There is no cut between a classical and a quantum world within QT, and there's no empirical evidence for one to exist in nature.
When you make a preparation of a source and detectors etc, and data acquisiton devices, and computers that log all the data of virtual event counters, it's treated classically right? From that you compute distributions etc.

Without that SOLID support to make preparation and log massive amounts of data, how would you corroborate QM in the first place?

/Fredrik
 
  • #127
vanhees71 said:
The statistics of measurements on Bell states consist of operations with single quantum systems (e.g., two entangled photons) event-by-event, and the conservation laws hold event by event. E.g., if you have a polarization-singlet two-photon state and you measure, e.g., the linear polarization of the two photons in the same direction you must always get opposite results, because the total angular momentum of the two-photon states is 0. Of course, to verify this, you must repeat the same experiment very often to gain sufficient statistics to meet your goal of statistical significance. That doesn't imply that the conservation laws hold only on average.
You're still missing the point entirely. Let's continue with what I said about "average-only" projection because it is exactly the same point, but with just one particle. Set your particular "constructive" account aside. [Random components of some hidden, underlying vector? And you always get +/- 1 for these random components? Weird.] You can have whatever view of the unseen underlying situation you like, it's absolutely irrelevant and won't affect what I'm saying at all because all I'm referring to are mathematical and empirical facts about spin.

vanhees71 said:
Indeed. What else do you need? That's all what has been ever observed in Stern-Gerlach experiments (including those much more accurate ones like using a Penning trap to measure the electron Lande g-factor to 12 (or more?) digits of accuracy.
Again, this is your particular personal response to the situation. There are physicists who are/were not satisfied with the formalism and experiments alone, e.g., Gell-Mann, Feynman, Mermin, Bell, Einstein, etc. People with the mindset of this latter group participate in forums like this one to share ideas on how to satisfy their need for understanding.

vanhees71 said:
What goes beyond the "mere formalism" and its application to real-world experiment is not subject to the objective natural sciences. An indication for that is that it seems impossible to clearly state, what "the problem" is.
Despite reading many posts and papers on the questions researchers in foundations are trying to answer, you still don't "get it." As I said before, I infer from this history that you are unlikely to ever get it. But, let's continue here and see if you can at least understand "average-only" projection whence "average-only" conservation, even if you don't appreciate why anyone would bother to characterize the mathematical and empirical facts this way.

vanhees71 said:
Of course, an information theoretical approach to any kind of probabilistic description is an important aspect to understand the physics it describes. The claim that we "don't have to understand the reconstructions in detail" is another indication that here we leave the realm of exact science.
The details I'm leaving out are those not relevant to my point. Those included are "exact science."

vanhees71 said:
This I don't understand. It depends on the preparation of the system before measurement, which probabilities, ##p_1## and ##p_2=1-p_1## you'll find when repeating the experiment often enough to measure these probabilities at a given level of statistical significance. That's true for both "classical" and "quantum" probabilities.
I'm just stating a fact about the classical bit to contrast its difference with the qubit, i.e., "continuity." As the reconstructions show, classical probability theory and quantum probability theory only differ in this one respect -- reversible transformations between pure states are continuous for the qubit while they are discrete for the classical bit. That's the "Continuity" part of Information Invariance & Continuity.

vanhees71 said:
What do you mean by "average-only projection"? If you measure the spin component in any arbitrary direction (by the way completely determined with two angles ##(\vartheta,\varphi)## indicating the unit vector determining that direction) precisely, you always find either a value ##\hbar/2## or ##-\hbar/2## in each event, independent of the (pure or mixed) state you prepared the particle's spin in. The probabilities are given by the statistical operator describing this state prepared before measurement.
Keep reading, I explain what is meant by "average-only" projection using the mathematical and empirical facts later in the post.

vanhees71 said:
Of course, quantum theory provides different (probabilistic predictions than a classical model of the electron. It was Stern's very motivation to do this experiment. It was not even clear, what the prediction of the ("old" quantum theory!) was: Should one get two or three discrete lines (Bohr vs. Sommerfeld) or a continuum (classical physics).
Yes, here's an interesting historical account.

vanhees71 said:
But you can check the conservation laws only for one component, because determining one component of the spin implies that any other component is indetermined, because components in different direction are incompatible observables. Also you can measure only one spin direction, i.e., you can only choose one direction by the magnetic field. You never measure two components of the spin in different directions on a single particle. This you can achieve only on an ensemble. If you test the conservation law for angular momentum you can do that event-by-event only when measuring the spins of the two particles in a single direction. Any other measurement gives random results with probabilities given by Born's rule, given the (pure or mixed) state the particles' spin is prepared in before measurement.
In order to understand what is meant by "average-only" projection, you have to stick to the following facts, (which hold regardless of the underlying ontology you are imagining might be responsible for them):

1. When ##\hat{b} = \hat{z}##, you always get +1.
2. When ##\hat{b}## makes an angle ##\theta## with respect to ##\hat{z}##, you get +1 with a frequency of ##\cos^2{\left(\frac{\theta}{2}\right)}## and you get -1 with a frequency of ##\sin^2{\left(\frac{\theta}{2}\right)}##. These average to ##\cos{\theta}##. You never measure anything other than +1 or -1.
3. ##\cos{\theta}## is the projection of +1 along ##\hat{b}##.

This collection of facts is what is meant by "average-only" projection. As you see, it is a statement of mathematical and empirical facts associated with spin. The classical constructive model (Knight figure) says we should get ##\cos{\theta}## every time, but in actuality we only get ##\cos{\theta}## on average. As you can (hopefully) see, "average-only" projection is not a matter of opinion or interpretation.

vanhees71 said:
You are not in different reference frames. For that you'd have to use moving Stern-Gerlach magnets. Due to Galilei invariance the outcome of the measurements do not depend on the choice of the reference frame (defined, e.g., by the restframe of the magnets). The description of the same experiment in one frame is just a unitary transformation (given by the usual ray representation of the Gailei group for a particle with the given mass and spin). The same, of course, holds for Poincare invariance in the relativistic case (where however you have to be careful with the definition of "spin"; here you can only measure the total angular momentum of the electron, not the spin since the split into spin and orbital angular momentum is frame dependent).

That there's one and only one frame-independent value for Planck's constant, ##\hbar=h/(2 \pi)##, is implemented in the realization of either non-relativistic or relativistic QT. That has nothing to do with "average-only conservation", which claim contradicts all observations made so far.
Different inertial reference frames are related by boosts (as you state), but they are also related by spatial rotations. The reference frame of the complementary spin measurements associated with ##\hat{b}## is indeed spatially rotated with respect to the reference frame of the complementary spin measurements associated with ##\hat{z}## (per Brukner and Zeilinger). Again, no interpretation here.

The relativity principle aka no preferred reference frame (NPRF) says we should measure the same value for fundamental constants of Nature like c (light postulate) and h (call this the "Planck postulate"), regardless of our inertial reference frame. Since we are in fact measuring h here (per Weinberg), then NPRF says we have to get (+\-) h for all ##\hat{b}##. So, we can justify the fact that we have "average-only" projection rather than direct projection by the Planck postulate, which follows from NPRF. This justification is a "principle" account, so it is not threatened by any "constructive" account (like your "random components" model).

Here are the facts for "average-only" conservation (triplet states):
1. When ##\hat{b} = \hat{a}##, Alice and Bob always get the same result, i.e., they both get +1 or they both get -1. This fact holds everywhere in the plane of symmetry. This is the rotational invariance for conservation of spin angular momentum.
2. When ##\hat{b}## makes an angle ##\theta## with respect to ##\hat{a}## (in the plane of symmetry), Bob gets +1 with a frequency of ##\cos^2{\left(\frac{\theta}{2}\right)}## and he gets -1 with a frequency of ##\sin^2{\left(\frac{\theta}{2}\right)}## corresponding to Alice's +1 outcome. These average to ##\cos{\theta}##. Similarly for Alice's -1 outcome, Bob's +1 and -1 results average to ##-\cos{\theta}##. Alice and Bob never measure anything other than +1 or -1.
3. ##\pm\cos{\theta}## is the projection of ##\pm 1## along ##\hat{b}## in accord with conservation of spin angular momentum in Fact 1, i.e., had Bob measured at ##\hat{b} = \hat{a}##, he would have gotten the same ##\pm 1## outcome that Alice did, as demanded by conservation of spin angular momentum.
4. The situation is entirely symmetric under the interchange of Alice and Bob.

This is what is meant by "average-only" conservation. As you can (hopefully) see, it is not a matter of interpretation or opinion. It is standard textbook QM for the Bell states.
 
  • #128
PeterDonis said:
More precisely, it's a "mathematical fact" if you ignore the interaction between the measured systems and the measuring devices. Once you include that interaction, it's obvious that conserved quantities--energy, momentum, angular momentum--can be exchanged between the measured systems and the measuring devices, so there is no reason to expect exact conservation of those quantities if you only look at the measured systems. In other words, the measured systems, by themselves, do not constitute an isolated, closed system, so you should not expect them to exactly obey conservation laws. This does not mean conservation laws only hold "on average" for quantum systems; it just means that, as always, conservation laws only hold for isolated, closed systems that don't interact with anything else.
No such qualifier is needed, see Post #129.
 
  • #129
RUTA said:
No such qualifier is needed, see Post #129.
I see a lot of detail in post #129 about the mathematical calculations that underlie what you mean by "average only conservation" (which I didn't need, I already understand the math), but I don't see anything that addresses the physical point I made.
 
  • #130
PeterDonis said:
I see a lot of detail in post #129 about the mathematical calculations that underlie what you mean by "average only conservation" (which I didn't need, I already understand the math), but I don't see anything that addresses the physical point I made.
If you understand what I said “average-only” conservation means in that post, then you should understand that the physical details of your post are irrelevant.
 
  • #131
RUTA said:
If you understand what I said “average-only” conservation means in that post, then you should understand that the physical details of your post are irrelevant.
Even if you think I "should" understand this, i don't.
 
  • #132
PeterDonis said:
Even if you think I "should" understand this, i don't.
Sorry, let me try again. The facts defining “average-only” conservation as listed in Post 129 do not depend on the physical facts in your post. Worse, your physical facts confuse what is meant by “average-only” conservation” as defined by my listed facts.
 
  • #133
Fra said:
I am guessing Karl Popper would be proud of you both 🙂 I do understand but doesn't share the stance as optimal.

About laughing, the exact same thing happened to smolin as he held a talk SETI about the evolution of law and the principle of prescedence….
There was an interesting debate held on that sort of topic recently but I think it is behind a paywall, “Is the universe fundamentally predictable or unpredictable? Does the degree to which the future remains unknown reflect our own cognitive limitations, or the fundamentally open structure of reality?… a remarkable panel comprising of Lee Smolin, Francesca Vidotto and John Vervaeke debated these questions during an IAI Live event, streamed in real time from the Institute of Art and Ideas in London. The universe, the panelists agreed, is a place of constant change and surprise, and its future remains fundamentally open.“ In the talk Fra posted Anaximander was mentioned, and this is also interesting I think-
 
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  • #134
RUTA said:
If you understand what I said “average-only” conservation means in that post, then you should understand that the physical details of your post are irrelevant.
So the result "average only conservation" is to give a new name to completely settled and understood Quantum Practice?
Why is this to be desired? ( And why choose that name?)

.
 
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  • #135
hutchphd said:
So the result "average only conservation" is to give a new name to completely settled and understood Quantum Practice?
Why is this to be desired? ( And why choose that name?)
You could ask a similar question to @vanhess71, when he keeps insisting that the word "locality" really means "microcausality principle". He complains that people keep using the word "locality" with its well established meaning instead, and even dare to doubt that QFT + the minimal statistical interpretation satisfy locality. For him, it is an established mathematical fact that QFT satisfies locality, because it satisfies the "microcausality principle" after all.

P.S.: To be honest, Demystifier's recent thread (which already got closed) trying to refute vanhees71's locality claims seemed pointless to me, because it seems pretty clear to me that in the end, it is just a disagreement about the proper use of words.
 
  • #136
hutchphd said:
So the result "average only conservation" is to give a new name to completely settled and understood Quantum Practice?
Yes! Did you see that immediately? Or was there something in my later posts that made that clear to you? I’m writing a book for the general reader on this so I’d like to know how best to say it.

hutchphd said:
Why is this to be desired? ( And why choose that name?)
It’s a way to distinguish quantum behavior from classical expectations. In that sense it provides the “mechanism” for the “mystery” of Bell state entanglement. For Unnikrishnan who first pointed this out for the singlet state it resolved the mystery too. Since the weirdness (violation of classical expectations) of the phenomenon resides in average-only conservation and since conservation principles are widely accepted as explanatory in physics, average-only conservation both identifies the mystery and solves it.

Most in foundations want average-only conservation explained though. NPRF + h is a principle way to do that.
 
  • #137
RUTA said:
The facts defining “average-only” conservation as listed in Post 129 do not depend on the physical facts in your post.
I didn't say they did. Of course they don't.

RUTA said:
Worse, your physical facts confuse what is meant by “average-only” conservation” as defined by my listed facts.
No, they don't "confuse what is meant", they just make explicit something you didn't, namely, that "average-only conservation" as you define it is perfectly consistent with exact conservation for each individual event, because each individual event involves more than just the quantum systems being measured, so those systems are not isolated. So "average-only conservation" is not any kind of alternative to exact conservation for each individual event. It's just using different words to describe a particular aspect of these types of measurements.

If you are not claiming that "average-only conservation" as you define it rules out exact conservation for each individual event, then there is no issue. But @vanhees71, at least, appears to think that you are claiming that "average-only conservation" rules out exact conservation for each individual event; that's why he keeps arguing, correctly, that exact conservation can hold for each individual event. If you are not claiming that average-only conservation rules out exact conservation for each individual event, it would probably be a good idea to clarify that point.
 
  • #138
RUTA said:
It’s a way to distinguish quantum behavior from classical expectations.
This appears to require that average-only conservation does rule out exact conservation for each individual event. Is that your intent?
 
  • #139
PeterDonis said:
This appears to require that average-only conservation does rule out exact conservation for each individual event. Is that your intent?
And please carefully define what you mean by an "event". The particles that "appear" in a particular perturbation expansion are entirely chimerical until measured otherwise.
 
  • #140
hutchphd said:
And please carefully define what you mean by an "event".
I was using "event" to mean something like "a single run of an experiment that involves spin measurements on each of an entangled pair of particles".

hutchphd said:
The particles that "appear" in a particular perturbation expansion are entirely chimerical
I don't think this is relevant to the kinds of experiments being discussed in this thread; they involve quantum systems that are unproblematically "particles", in entangled pairs produced by sources that are well understood, and using spin measurements that are well understood.
 
  • #141
RUTA said:
You may just have to accept the fact that you will never understand what bothered Einstein, Weinberg, Mermin, Gell-Mann, Feynman, and many others about QM. You simply cannot relate, so you have nothing to contribute to such discussions. I wish I could help you!
I think we all know what bothered Einstein about QM, but in 2022 is it really relevant? Human minds are difficult to change and perhaps if you brought the great man back to life he would still insist that QM is incomplete. Personally, I think Feynman understood perfectly what QM was saying and how it changed our whole perspective on physics and its relationship to the reality of natural phenomena (if I can phrase it like that).

You could equally well find a selection of physicists who want to find a place for God in the universe and then try to exclude atheists from such a discussion. (There was something pseudo-religious, IMO, about Einstein's objection to QM. He often brought "God" into the discussion.)

The worst thing you could do is discuss this issue only with physicists who are uncomfortable with QM and inexorably reinforce your views. We see this on social media and how it fundamentaly undermines the ability to analyse any subject.
 
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  • #142
hutchphd said:
And please carefully define what you mean by an "event".
PeterDonis said:
I was using "event" to mean something like "a single run of an experiment that involves spin measurements on each of an entangled pair of particles".
I would not call that an "event", but a "single trial" (or just a "trial", or a "single run"). But that is just me, I certainly don't want to prescribe to other people how to use language and words.

The important point for me is whether the chosen words are good enough to transmit the intended message to the target audience with sufficient detail.

hutchphd said:
The particles that "appear" in a particular perturbation expansion are entirely chimerical until measured otherwise.
For me, the word "event" implies a rather good localization in space and time. So I prefer to accept that my "events" are not classical events, and can be in superposition. This implies that they are to a certain extent chimerical and rather arbirarily defined. I prefer this over having to "wait" for a measurement, because that additional time delay (and distance) would destroy the good localization of my "events".
 
  • #143
RUTA said:
You're still missing the point entirely. Let's continue with what I said about "average-only" projection because it is exactly the same point, but with just one particle. Set your particular "constructive" account aside. [Random components of some hidden, underlying vector? And you always get +/- 1 for these random components? Weird.] You can have whatever view of the unseen underlying situation you like, it's absolutely irrelevant and won't affect what I'm saying at all because all I'm referring to are mathematical and empirical facts about spin.
I have no clue what you want to say here. Can you clearly state (a) about which spin we talk, (b) in which state the spin is prepared before measurement, and (c) which measurement is made on the so prepared spin and what you mean by "average-only" projection. Before you claimed, against all emprical facts, that conservation laws were valid only on average. If philosophy starts with denying empirical facts, I cannot understand what this should help with understanding quantum theory. To the contrary, it's just nonsense. Simple logic tells you that you get anything you like from false assumptions! Now you changed words again. Now it's "average-only" projection. Please give clear mathematical definitions what is done!
RUTA said:
Again, this is your particular personal response to the situation. There are physicists who are/were not satisfied with the formalism and experiments alone, e.g., Gell-Mann, Feynman, Mermin, Bell, Einstein, etc. People with the mindset of this latter group participate in forums like this one to share ideas on how to satisfy their need for understanding.Despite reading many posts and papers on the questions researchers in foundations are trying to answer, you still don't "get it." As I said before, I infer from this history that you are unlikely to ever get it. But, let's continue here and see if you can at least understand "average-only" projection whence "average-only" conservation, even if you don't appreciate why anyone would bother to characterize the mathematical and empirical facts this way.The details I'm leaving out are those not relevant to my point. Those included are "exact science."
If you don't give details, of course there's no chance to understand each other.
RUTA said:
I'm just stating a fact about the classical bit to contrast its difference with the qubit, i.e., "continuity." As the reconstructions show, classical probability theory and quantum probability theory only differ in this one respect -- reversible transformations between pure states are continuous for the qubit while they are discrete for the classical bit. That's the "Continuity" part of Information Invariance & Continuity.
I don't think that this part is in any way controversial.
RUTA said:
Keep reading, I explain what is meant by "average-only" projection using the mathematical and empirical facts later in the post.
Please give a mathematical description without too many words. We have a concise mathematical language to avoid such mutual misunderstandings. Once more, the claim the conservation laws were valid only on average is an empirically disproven claim!
RUTA said:
Yes, here's an interesting historical account.In order to understand what is meant by "average-only" projection, you have to stick to the following facts, (which hold regardless of the underlying ontology you are imagining might be responsible for them):

1. When ##\hat{b} = \hat{z}##, you always get +1.
2. When ##\hat{b}## makes an angle ##\theta## with respect to ##\hat{z}##, you get +1 with a frequency of ##\cos^2{\left(\frac{\theta}{2}\right)}## and you get -1 with a frequency of ##\sin^2{\left(\frac{\theta}{2}\right)}##. These average to ##\cos{\theta}##. You never measure anything other than +1 or -1.
3. ##\cos{\theta}## is the projection of +1 along ##\hat{b}##.
This all are empty words, as long as you don't state, what is measured and how the measured system is prepared.
 
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  • #144
PeroK said:
I think we all know what bothered Einstein about QM, but in 2022 is it really relevant? Human minds are difficult to change and perhaps if you brought the great man back to life he would still insist that QM is incomplete. Personally, I think Feynman understood perfectly what QM was saying and how it changed our whole perspective on physics and its relationship to the reality of natural phenomena (if I can phrase it like that).
The difference between Einstein and @RUTA is that he made clear statements. It's clear what bothered Einstein, and it's also clear that Einstein's local hidden-variable idea, as interpreted by Bell in a scientifically clearly decidable sense, is ruled out. In this sense, indeed Einstein's quibbles are resolved.

Of course, Feynman understood perfectly well, what QM is saying, and his treatment in the introductory chapter of the Feynman Lectures vol. III (concerning the double-slit experiment with particles) is all there is to say. That's why I don't understand when Feynman says, "nobody understands quantum mechanics"
 
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  • #145
vanhees71 said:
That's why I don't understand when Feynman says, "nobody understands quantum mechanics"
It was supposed to be a joke.
 
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  • #146
Surely he was joking ;-)).
 
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  • #147
I am sure there are those here that has studied the historical communication far better than me so I throw this ou. I wonder if Einstein fully accepted that Bell's theorem was a correct characterization of his own ideas?
vanhees71 said:
what bothered Einstein, and it's also clear that Einstein's local hidden-variable idea, as interpreted by Bell in a scientifically clearly decidable sense, is ruled out. In this sense, indeed Einstein's quibbles are resolved.
The question is (and motivated by my own critical view on Bells ansatz): did Einstein never object to the ansatz of Bells theorem?

(note that the question has nothing todo with correctness of bells theorem, it's about wether einstein agreed with the formalisation that bell did)

/Fredrik
 
  • #148
How could he? Einstein died in 1955, Bell's 1st paper was written in 1964...
 
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  • #149
vanhees71 said:
How could he? Einstein died in 1955, Bell's 1st paper was written in 1964...
I knew there was someone that knew better🤣

/Fredrik
 
  • #150
PeterDonis said:
This appears to require that average-only conservation does rule out exact conservation for each individual event. Is that your intent?
Charge and energy are conserved exactly (for each trial) in these experiments. Does that bear at all on the mystery of entanglement per the Bell states? No, so why state it when doing so leads precisely to confusing statements like this one? I think I'll stick to my presentation of the empirical and mathematical facts that define "average-only" projection and "average-only" conservation (for spin angular momentum in this case) and not introduce extraneous facts. Indeed, I'll make my Posts 113 and 129 an Insight so I can just link to that concise explanation and list of the relevant facts in the future.
 
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