What is the relationship between orbital energy and gravitational waves?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between orbital energy and gravitational waves, particularly in the context of circular orbits and the effects of gravitational radiation on energy changes. Participants explore theoretical scenarios involving massive objects in motion and the implications of gravitational wave emission on orbital dynamics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that the emission of gravitational waves alters orbital energy and poses a question about calculating the difference in orbital energy using variables such as G, M, and r.
  • Another participant requests clarification on the scenario, asking if it involves two isolated massive objects in quasi-Keplerian motion and the quadrupole approximation in weak-field general relativity.
  • A participant proposes a method to calculate the kinetic and potential energy of an object in circular orbit, indicating that the loss of energy due to gravitational radiation can be approximated by the difference in kinetic energy as the orbiting object moves closer to the massive object.
  • Further elaboration includes specific formulas for circular orbital velocities and kinetic energy, leading to a discussion about the relationship between changes in kinetic energy and gravitational radiation.
  • Another participant raises questions about the distinction between binding energy and gravitational potential energy, referencing the virial theorem and the energy dynamics involved in collapsing gravitating objects and star formation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints and questions regarding the relationship between orbital energy and gravitational waves, with no consensus reached on the specifics of the calculations or the implications of gravitational radiation.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about circular orbits and the simplifications made for calculations. There are unresolved questions regarding the definitions and relationships between different forms of energy, such as binding energy and gravitational potential energy.

kmarinas86
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The emission of gravational waves changes orbital energy right?

If orbital energy [itex]O[/itex] is a function of radius, what would [itex]O_{final}-O_{initial}[/itex] be, using variables such as [itex]G[/itex], [itex]M[/itex], and [itex]r[/itex]?
 
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Can you clarify the question?

Hi, kmarinas86 (presumably also the Wikipedia user with a similar name?),

Can you be more specific about the scenario you have in mind? Are you talking about two isolated massive objects in quasi-Keplerian motion, treated according to the quadrupole approximation in weak-field gtr?

Chris Hillman
 
Assume a circular orbit for simplicity, then work out the kinetic and potential energy of an object of mass m orbiting a distance r from a static object of mass M (M>>m for simplicity). Then consider it in a circular orbit at a distance R with R<r, and then work out the difference. In the absense of any other effects, the loss of energy will be due to gravitational radiation, to a decent approximation I'd imagine.
 
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AlphaNumeric said:
Assume a circular orbit for simplicity, then work out the kinetic and potential energy of an object of mass m orbiting a distance r from a static object of mass M (M>>m for simplicity). Then consider it in a circular orbit at a distance R with R<r, and then work out the difference. In the absense of any other effects, the loss of energy will be due to gravitational radiation, to a decent approximation I'd imagine.

[itex]v_{circular,r}=\sqrt{GM/r}[/itex]

[itex]v_{circular,R}=\sqrt{GM/R}[/itex]

[itex]KE_r=.5mv_{circular,r}^2=.5mGM/r[/itex]

[itex]KE_R=.5mv_{circular,R}^2=.5mGM/R[/itex]

[itex]KE_R-KE_r=.5mGM\left(1/R-1/r)[/itex]

That was simple enough.

According to what you say, wouldn't gravitational radiation also be emitted equal to half the change in gravitational potential such that the there is:

[itex]\Delta KE=.5mGM\left(1/R-1/r)[/itex]

[itex]\Delta gravitational\ radiation=.5mGM\left(1/R-1/r)[/itex]

But what about heat?

For non-circular orbits:

I know (from other sources) that for a collapsing gravitating object, half of the change in the gravitational binding energy will lead to kinetic energy inside the object and the other half will leave as electromagnetic radiation (per the virial theorem). How do I distinguish and understand the value of binding energy in comparison to the value of gravitational potential energy? Is there a clear path from [itex]GM^2/r[/itex] to [itex]GMm/r[/itex] ? Now this a bit tricky (I think). For pairs of objects originally at infinite distance from each other, the change in kinetic energy is [itex].5GMm/r_{in\ between}[/itex], but for forming stars, the gravitational contribution to kinetic energy (I guess) is [itex].5GM^2/r_{star}[/itex]... I know it's a lot of questions. But I hope you can answer some of them at least.
 
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