News What is wrong with the Islamic world?

[vanesch]

Aquamarine, to me the idea of a society being based on religion is quite out-dated and generally bad.. but is a society based on greed really better?

Smurf, have a look at: www.indoctrinatecapitalistpropaganda.org[/URL].
All evidence points out that even poor greedy white people have better telephones than bearded semitic middle class praying people. Don't underestimate the importance of good telephones with color movies.

:smile:

 

[Smurf]

Page Cannot Be Found

hmmmm

 

[revelator]

Maybe because 9/11. They cannot assume any risk. Thats what we have to do to preserve our freedom

"Those who whould give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - Ben Franklin, 1755

 

[adrenaline]

I think Islam was a highly evolved religion compared to Christianity's barbaric past until the recent radicalization that caused it to regress or de-evolve while Christianity continued to transform itself . Christian anti-Semitism has a long and terrible history, as does Christian aggression against Islam during the Crusades and against fellow Christians during the Wars of Religion. But after each outpouring of violence, the church has been forced to ask itself: Is this what Christianity is about? In time the answers came, and except for small, radical fringes, Christianity as a whole has repudiated war, coercion, and hate as ways to further the Christian message.

I think we are at a point, not of the clash between the West and Islam, it is, instead, the clash between Muslims as they try to define their faith for the 21st century. Much the same way the Christians did with their many wars amongst each other. Islam clearly does not speak with one voice. It shows nearly as much diversity as does Christianity. This is where this religion stands and it is at a crucial crossroads at which we can hopefully play a part.

Is Islam fundamentally opposed to human rights by its inherently theocratic thrust? Why do Muslim countries have such deplorable records on human rights? .

Human beings are being traded as slaves in Sudan. Has the government in Khartoum been flooded with protests from every corner of the Muslim world?.

No one can deny the lack of women's rights under Islam. The widespread practice of female genital mutilation in Muslim countries alone signals the reality of women's oppression. Women are forbidden even to drive a car in Saudi Arabia. But niether was America interested in the plight of the horrific oppression, enslavement and killing of the women under the Taliban until Sept 11th. (Yet, Mohammad's second in command I believe was a woman.) My most radical feminist friends are Muslim who see the Q'uran as more liberating than the Bible but they hemmoraged out of the Middle East and there are none back home to take up their interpretation and reading of the Q'uran to advance the cause of women.

 

[Polly]

Aquamarine, it's getting chilly in Hong Kong now, just 18 C this afternoon I checked, and I suspect it is getting cold in your country as well (unless of course you are in Aussieland), so I'd say, as a friend, put aside your heroic effort to change the world, or divide and rule whatever it is, and, as we Cantonese say all the time, save your breathe and warm your tummy, which is what I am doing now

Cheers

 

[russ_watters]

Aquamarine, to me the idea of a society being based on religion is quite out-dated and generally bad.. but is a society based on greed really better?

Depends on what you consider "better." If, for example, you consider eating to be better than not eating, then yes, capitalism is better.

But niether was America interested in the plight of the horrific oppression, enslavement and killing of the women under the Taliban until Sept 11th.

That isn't really true - Afghanistan was long on the radar of places we needed to fix and we've discussed for years how to do it. It wasn't important enough to us to do anything about it until 9/11, but we were certainly "interested" in it.

 

[Smurf]

Is Islam fundamentally opposed to human rights by its inherently theocratic thrust? Why do Muslim countries have such deplorable records on human rights? .

Adrenaline I don't want to burst your bubble, but the #1 offender of the Geneva Conventions is Israel, closely followed by the United States. [Don't say it russ, The Geneva Convention Is there to protect Human Rights]

Human beings are being traded as slaves in Sudan.

and going to USA

Has the government in Khartoum been flooded with protests from every corner of the Muslim world?.

Didn't bush get Eggs thrown at him the first time he was elected?

No one can deny the lack of women's rights under Islam.

Apparently the same does not hold true for Human Rights violations of the West in recent years. [see above]

My most radical feminist friends are Muslim who see the Q'uran as more liberating than the Bible but they hemmoraged out of the Middle East and there are none back home to take up their interpretation and reading of the Q'uran to advance the cause of women.

Maybe the problem isn't Islam then, but something.. else?

 

[Aquamarine]

Adrenaline I don't want to burst your bubble, but the #1 offender of the Geneva Conventions is Israel, closely followed by the United States. [Don't say it russ, The Geneva Convention Is there to protect Human Rights]

The Geneva Convention is primarily about warfare and not about humans rights in general.

It is ridiculous to compare the US or Israel to those crimes committed in Rwanda, Yugoslavia, Sudan, Ethiopia, Liberia, Nigeria, Uganda, Sierra Leone and many other countries:
http://www.genocidewatch.org/genocidetable2003.htm

Crimes of Saddam Hussein againt the Geneva Convention during the war:
http://www.heritage.org/Research/MiddleEast/wm260.cfm

 

[Gonzolo]

"What is wrong with th Islamic world?"

As long as no one tries to convert me, I get along fine with Muslims (this actually goes for any religion,... as well as insistant salesmen... and spam emails etc.), and I respect the religion. I believe it contains many good principles, and fundamentally aims for peace.

But here are my two cents :

1. One of the 5 pillars states that everyone should visit the Mecca once in his lifetime. Now I actually wouldn't mind visiting Mecca, but the pillar seems to immediately place the Middle East as a privileged area for Islam, for assuming the entire world was Muslim, how could the billions of people in N. and S. America, Europe, Asia, and Africa possibly ever travel to Mecca? There probably (hopefully) isn't a direct link but from an economic point of view, this would quite directly make tourism go through the roof, and since last century, fuel demand, both of which would be good for S. Arabia. I'm not aware of any similar economically linkable necessary actions in other religions.

Also, I think the Qu'ran is poetic in Arabic, but not quite so in other languages, so it again, the religion seems to place Arabic people (and those who speak Arabic) in a privileged position.

2. On a more political level, there seems to be many inner conflicts between Muslim groups. Examples may be between the Palestinian Authority and Hamas, or Sunni vs Shiite.

3. A side of me would be curious to know the numbers of Muslim kamikaze vs the number of non-Muslim kamikaze in various periods of History. Unfortunately, there is a tendency to associate the two, due to current media coverage. Along with current events, I roughly understand some of the frustration comes from Islam not being the great power it once was centuries ago.

Fortunately, I have met Muslims who have shown me the lighter side, but I have found it always better to not talk about religion too long.

 

[klusener]

I am not a Muslim or a Christian..

For the Christian people here, did Jesus say slavery is wrong? this is not detrimental, just a plain question, so i can be more enlightened about Christianity..

because from my experience with the Bible, i have seen parts where slavery is accepted...



Let all who are under the yoke of slavery regard their masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be blasphemed. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful to them on the ground that they are members of the church; rather they must serve them all the more, since those who benefit by their service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these duties. Whoever teaches otherwise and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that is in accordance with godliness, is conceited, understanding nothing, and has a morbid craving for controversy and for disputes about words. From these come envy, dissension, slander, base suspicions, and wrangling among those who are depraved in mind and bereft of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain. (1Tim. 6:1-5)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, in singleness of heart, as you obey Christ; not only while being watched, and in order to please them, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. (Eph. 6:5-6)

Tell slaves to be submissive to their masters and to give satisfaction in every respect; they are not to talk back, not to pilfer, but to show complete and perfect fidelity, so that in everything they may be an ornament to the doctrine of God our Savior. (Titus 2:9-10)

Slaves, accept the authority of your masters with all deference, not only those who are kind and gentle but also those who are harsh. For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God's approval. (1Pet. 2:18-29)

My christian friends, please respond to this...

Second, i see people accusing Muslims for being violent in their conversion tactics and it is true, because as an Indian, i know my nation's history, the Mughals came into our towns and showed the people the Quran and a sword, and unless the people accepted the Quran they were beheaded with the sword...

but as a logical person, i can see this on the other side (Christianity) too,

In 1122 Christian crusaders swept over Jerusalem and slaughtered men, women and children, 'until their horses were knee deep in blood. We then went to the church to thank the Lord for his mercy.'

In 777 , Charlemagne, a devout Christian, after conquering the Saxon rebels, gave them a choice between baptism and execution. When they refused to convert, he had 4500 of them beheaded in one morning.

Queen Isabella, famous for sending Columbus to the New World in 1492, was well known also for her 'Spanish Inquisition', the gruesome torture and murder of tens of thousands of Spanish Jews, Muslims, homosexuals, people who read or wrote, uppity women, and anyone else not up to the Queen's strict standards. Isabella was a champion of the faith, piously congratulating herself as her victims writhed to their deaths in the flames and the many other ingenious methods of torture invented by her inquisitors.

As an outsider, this is what i have read and derived from my experience and when i finish reading the Quran, I will have some questions for my Muslim friends here too...

 

[kat]

My christian friends, please respond to this...

Are you familiar with any Christian communities that are enslaving people...today? otherwise bibilicly speaking...it's really freakin irrelevent.