What limits the amount of renewable energy sources?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the limitations of renewable energy sources in electricity production, particularly in the context of grid stability, energy storage, and the role of dispatchable power sources. Participants explore various factors affecting the integration of renewable energy, including geographical considerations and the variability of different renewable sources.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that every country requires a constant electricity production source, such as coal or nuclear, to complement renewable sources like wind and solar.
  • Others suggest that the maximum fraction of intermittent renewable energy that can replace dispatchable sources is limited, with estimates around 25% for annual energy generation without significant storage solutions.
  • It is noted that a robust grid can mitigate the need for backup power, as not all renewable sources are likely to fail simultaneously.
  • Examples from Scotland are presented, highlighting high percentages of renewable energy generation, but some participants challenge the validity of these examples due to Scotland's interconnected grid with England.
  • Storage capabilities are identified as a critical factor, with current limitations in technology and cost affecting the integration of renewables.
  • Concerns are raised about the potential for countries to claim credit for the same renewable energy due to interconnected grids, complicating the assessment of renewable energy contributions.
  • Some participants propose that island nations may provide clearer examples of renewable energy integration, while others caution that these examples may not be representative of larger continental grids.
  • Discussion includes the notion that backup requirements for renewable sources vary, with estimates suggesting that solar may require 100% backup and wind may have a lower average backup requirement based on capacity factors.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the effectiveness and limitations of renewable energy sources, particularly regarding the role of storage, grid interconnectivity, and the validity of specific country examples. There is no consensus on the maximum feasible integration of renewables or the implications of interconnected grids.

Contextual Notes

Limitations in the discussion include the dependence on specific country examples, the variability of renewable energy sources, and the unresolved nature of backup power requirements based on different energy profiles.

  • #31
russ_watters said:
What is most important about "renewable" sources isn't that they are renewable, it's that they are clean. Nuclear should be included in that. Indeed, many laws that subsidize "renewable" energy specifically cite it for being carbon free, even while excluding nuclear. These categorizations are being challenged in court and nuclear is tending to win those arguments.

Also, less important, but nuclear power doesn't need to be "renewable" because it will take a very long time to deplete it.

How does one counter the argument about nuclear waste? Nuclear seems clean in other respects but the waste is the waste a problem?

Cheers
 
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  • #32
cosmik debris said:
How does one counter the argument about nuclear waste? Nuclear seems clean in other respects but the waste is the waste a problem?
When have you ever heard of an *actual* and *current* problem with nuclear waste? Not a theoretical problem, an *actual* problem. Not in the future, now. Every course of action people describe is for an actual problem: we "must" do this or that. 'We must keep nuclear waste safe for 100,000 years.' But every description of why starts with a hypothetical. Might, if, maybe, could. And silly ones at that: *If* civilization collapses, whoever's left alive *might* not recognize warning signs and become exposed to the waste.

Global warming is an *actual* problem and a *now* problem. There's CO2 in the atmosphere, the levels are rising and the climate is warming. These are facts; they are things that are actually happening now.

Actual, now problems are more important than hypothetical future ones, even if their scale is the same, which it isn't.
 
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  • #33
cosmik debris said:
How does one counter the argument about nuclear waste? Nuclear seems clean in other respects but the waste is the waste a problem?

Cheers

I think the big reason here is that people are stuck in the 60's when it comes to nuclear tech. Both Fukishima and Chernobyl are/were the same reactor generation/technology (BWR). Things have come quite a long way since those once through reactors. I blame the Simpsons.

As a primer on where we could go check out the Hitachi PRISM, or MSRs in general, also hybrid fission/fusion is very interesting (Fusor as a neutron source, nuke waste as a target/fuel). Then if cost is the next question then the answer is the SMR concepts.

Its a shame nuclear is basically the N word of the energy sector because we could already be carbon free.
 
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  • #34
Plus "renewable" is a nonsense concept, its not renewable, the sun will run out, its just the time frame is acceptable lol.

Edit: I see someone already made this comment :D
 
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  • #36
We are getting far afield of the OP question.
ORF said:
I was told every country needs a constant electricity production source (like coal or nuclear powerplants), and up to some proportion, renewable sources (photovoltaics, hydro, wind turbines, etc).

So, my question is: what limits the amount of renewable sources? (the grid, storage...?)

Since that question was adequately answered, it is time to close this thread.
 
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