What property of air makes it compressible?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of air that contribute to its compressibility and the hypothetical changes that could be made to air to achieve a denser atmosphere at lower altitudes. Participants explore both realistic and fantastical modifications to air's characteristics, considering implications for atmospheric height and density.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests increasing the strength of the gravitational field to reduce atmospheric height while maintaining density at sea level.
  • Another participant references the ideal gas law and barotropic equation, proposing that increasing gravity or decreasing temperature would cause pressure and density to drop more rapidly with altitude.
  • A different viewpoint notes that air's low dipole moment contributes to its gaseous state under terrestrial conditions, questioning what properties could be realistically changed.
  • One participant proposes changing the melting point of air to make it solid at ambient temperatures as a fantastical property change.
  • Another participant considers increasing the mass of air atoms or the "stickiness" of air, discussing intermolecular forces and their potential effects on atmospheric density.
  • Hydrogen bonding is mentioned as a property to explore further in relation to air's characteristics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of ideas regarding potential changes to air's properties, with no consensus reached on specific modifications or their implications. Some contributions lean towards realistic changes, while others explore more fantastical concepts.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of air's molecular properties and their effects on its behavior, but the discussion remains open-ended with unresolved questions about the nature of intermolecular forces and their role in compressibility.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those exploring atmospheric science, physics educators, and individuals curious about the properties of gases and their implications in theoretical contexts.

Bad Hair Day
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What would you change about air to make it have the same density at sea level but the atmosphere would only be a few miles high instead of a several hundred miles high?
What would you change about air to make it have the same density at sea level but the atmosphere would only be a few miles high instead of a several hundred miles high?

I am a high school physics teacher.

As I ponder this possibility, my first thought is I could increase the strength of the gravitational field. That would cause the height of the atmosphere to decrease. But what I am really trying to get at is: is there something that could make air a little more like a liquid, where the top layer has more of a boundary between "air" and "no air", similar to the way water works? I don't need a hard boundary between "air" and "no air" like there is between "water" and "no water" but what property of air could we change so that the distance between a high altitude weather balloon (33 miles highest ever) and a satellite that doesn't degrade in its orbit due to air friction (well above LEO) is a matter of miles instead of hundreds of miles.

Thanks,

BHD
 
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Well, from the ideal gas law, the density of air is $$\rho=\frac{pM}{RT}$$ where M is the molecular weight, R is the universal gas constant, and T is the temperature. From the "barotropic equation," we have that $$\frac{dp}{dz}=-\rho g$$ So, $$\frac{dp}{dz}=-\frac{pMg}{RT}$$or$$\frac{d\ln{p}}{dz}=-\frac{Mg}{RT}$$So, to make the pressure and density drop off more rapidly with altitude, you would either increase g or decrease T. But eventually you would get to the point where the air would liquify.
 
Thought about that too, but for the question 'what would you change about air' (as in: properties of air itself) I drew a blank:
air is made up of molecules with a low dipole moment -- hence gaseous under terrrestrial atmospheric conditions. It wouldn't be air otherwise (but hat might be a circular argument :rolleyes: ).

And uh, hello Badhairday: ##\quad## :welcome: ##\quad## !
 
Do you mean realistic change or fantasy properties?

Change the melting point so that it is solid at ambient temperatures.
 
Hi,

Yes, I am asking about realistic change and a fantasy property.

So, I did think of increasing the gravity field on my own, but I didn't think of lowering the temperature. That would certainly work, because with less energy they won't push as hard against each other. Which brings me to my next realization- if I could magically increase the mass of each atom of air, that would have the same net effect. The atmosphere would weigh more and thus it would squeeze down harder on itself.

But here is where I get a little outside of what I understand. What if I could magically increase the stickiness of the air? If the atoms pulled harder on each other, that would definitely lower the roof of the atmosphere. But what property, exactly, would that be? Surface tension? Viscosity? What do those two things have in common- the intermolecular forces. So, what would I be doing at that point? Increasing the strength of the Van Der Walls force? I'm a little rusty on my chemical bonds, but I know that it isn't ionic or covalent bonding that makes the atmosphere (or any fluid) stick together but also remain a fluid...

Still Considering,

BHD
 
Oh, I forgot hydrogen bonding. I'll go read up on those real quick...
 
We discuss mainstream physics here on PF, not fantasy universes where properties are different. Thread closed.
 
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